Cinelli frame with fluted tubes
10-04-17, 02:11 PM
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Cinelli frame with fluted tubes
I have just bought a Cinelli bicycle in Italy, but it has not arrived here as yet.
I believe that it dates from the early 1990's and the Seller has told me that the frame tubing is Columbus SL and I have no reason to doubt that. All the fittings are Campagnolo Veloce and the wheels have Campagnolo rims.
The photographs on ebay show that the tubes are fluted, similar to Gilco - but apparently not actually Gilco. The tubes are not fluted for the total length of the tubes, to allow for braze-ons etc.
Can anyone please explain how the Gilco tube fluting came about, who made it / used it and who adopted the fluted design ? It appears that somehow Columbus did - or did they ?
The Seller told me that the frame was built originally for a professional racing cyclist and it was from this person that the Seller obtained it.
I am fairly certain that the professional [or team] would not have used Campagnolo Veloce items !
A friend in Italy who has an indepth knowledge of post 1950's bicycles has commented that it is peculiar that the bottom bracket does not have the raised Cinelli name. If this frame was a "special" perhaps a different bottom bracket was used ?
Or is all of this a load of waffle - I don't know !
The fluted tubing does interest me and the Seller has told me that the chromium plating and paintwork is origianl, as are the decals. He's probably correct.
When the bicycle is delivered I can take some photographs of it but being an ancient old geezer I haven't a clue how to put them on here - an electronically brain dead geek ! I could send them to someone's email address and let them put them on here ?
Keith
I believe that it dates from the early 1990's and the Seller has told me that the frame tubing is Columbus SL and I have no reason to doubt that. All the fittings are Campagnolo Veloce and the wheels have Campagnolo rims.
The photographs on ebay show that the tubes are fluted, similar to Gilco - but apparently not actually Gilco. The tubes are not fluted for the total length of the tubes, to allow for braze-ons etc.
Can anyone please explain how the Gilco tube fluting came about, who made it / used it and who adopted the fluted design ? It appears that somehow Columbus did - or did they ?
The Seller told me that the frame was built originally for a professional racing cyclist and it was from this person that the Seller obtained it.
I am fairly certain that the professional [or team] would not have used Campagnolo Veloce items !
A friend in Italy who has an indepth knowledge of post 1950's bicycles has commented that it is peculiar that the bottom bracket does not have the raised Cinelli name. If this frame was a "special" perhaps a different bottom bracket was used ?
Or is all of this a load of waffle - I don't know !
The fluted tubing does interest me and the Seller has told me that the chromium plating and paintwork is origianl, as are the decals. He's probably correct.
When the bicycle is delivered I can take some photographs of it but being an ancient old geezer I haven't a clue how to put them on here - an electronically brain dead geek ! I could send them to someone's email address and let them put them on here ?
Keith
10-05-17, 02:16 AM
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I forgot to mention that the fork is Cinelli and that the yellow Cinelli decals on the frame are the same background colour to the C on the fork crown.
I have read all the previous ribbed / fluted threads and it all seems very mysterious to my simple mind.
Who was Gilco and did he / they actually manufacture frame tubing, or modify other manufacturers' tubes ?
Did other tube manufacturers produce tubing to his / their designs under licence etc. and who were they ?
In my case, I cant imagine Cinelli [ who were owned by Columbus at this time ] buying-in tubing from someone else.
It would seem that there are variations in the width of the fluting to the tubes - or at least the number of flutes.
My frame is very similar to the Cornela frame previously photographed - the same heart shaped lug cut-outs, the same outline cast rear bridge, the same chrome work etc.
It all just "don't make sense to me" !
I have read all the previous ribbed / fluted threads and it all seems very mysterious to my simple mind.
Who was Gilco and did he / they actually manufacture frame tubing, or modify other manufacturers' tubes ?
Did other tube manufacturers produce tubing to his / their designs under licence etc. and who were they ?
In my case, I cant imagine Cinelli [ who were owned by Columbus at this time ] buying-in tubing from someone else.
It would seem that there are variations in the width of the fluting to the tubes - or at least the number of flutes.
My frame is very similar to the Cornela frame previously photographed - the same heart shaped lug cut-outs, the same outline cast rear bridge, the same chrome work etc.
It all just "don't make sense to me" !
10-05-17, 04:30 AM
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I could be wrong but I think Gilco is proprietary tubing made for Colnago
Do you have any pics or a link to the auction?
Do you have any pics or a link to the auction?
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10-05-17, 07:11 AM
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Gilco Design was a subsidiary of A.I. Colombo, the company that produced Columbus tubing until the name was formally changed to Columbus in the late 1970s. The company was created in 1947 by Gilberto Colombo, son of the founder and plant manger at the time. Gilco was originally setup to design chassis for sports cars,with Ferrari being an early customer. They have also produced designs for other notable marques such as Alfa Romeo, Ghia, Lancia and Maserati.
In the mid-1980s Gilberto concentrated his design efforts on the bicycle, producing the Gilco tubeset for Colnago's Master. Other bicycle projects include the Cinelli Laser bicycle and Columbus MS tubing. Gilco's design portfolio is quite varied, extending from furniture, to sailboats and even houses.
Given that the bicycle is a Cinelli, it probably is Columbus (check the steerer tube). However, many frame builders performed their own crimping and their were some other stock fluted tubesets from companies like Oria.
The earliest fluted tubing I've seen have been on boom era, entry level, Japanese models, though it wouldn't surprise me if the concept goes back much further.
In the mid-1980s Gilberto concentrated his design efforts on the bicycle, producing the Gilco tubeset for Colnago's Master. Other bicycle projects include the Cinelli Laser bicycle and Columbus MS tubing. Gilco's design portfolio is quite varied, extending from furniture, to sailboats and even houses.
Given that the bicycle is a Cinelli, it probably is Columbus (check the steerer tube). However, many frame builders performed their own crimping and their were some other stock fluted tubesets from companies like Oria.
The earliest fluted tubing I've seen have been on boom era, entry level, Japanese models, though it wouldn't surprise me if the concept goes back much further.
Last edited by T-Mar; 10-05-17 at 07:16 AM.
10-05-17, 07:20 AM
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The idea goes way back. This prewar German bike has crimped seat and chain stays.
10-05-17, 08:02 AM
#6
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Can you. Post a link to the completed auction,,, so we can see pictures, or post the eBay item number?
Ive never seen a Cinelli with fluted tubes, and didnt see any on the Cinelli Only blog.
Ive never seen a Cinelli with fluted tubes, and didnt see any on the Cinelli Only blog.
10-05-17, 08:32 AM
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Never seen a Cinelli with such either.......
Double checking it before purchase would have been a good idea, unless it was a super bargain that just cannot be passed on. It could be a fake, but it could also be something very special.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Double checking it before purchase would have been a good idea, unless it was a super bargain that just cannot be passed on. It could be a fake, but it could also be something very special.
Good luck and keep us posted.
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10-05-17, 09:00 AM
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I recently viewed Columbus "gilco" tubes for sale on ebay.
Obviously some made it out into the wild.
There have been a few other Italian bikes built with them too.
When something appears odd, it is well to suss it out first unless it was such a grand deal that the risk is acceptable.
Obviously some made it out into the wild.
There have been a few other Italian bikes built with them too.
When something appears odd, it is well to suss it out first unless it was such a grand deal that the risk is acceptable.
10-05-17, 09:52 AM
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Some "crimped" or embossed tubes were done by the tubing maker, but many were done at the frame builder level, and often with little history (especially in Italy). There was a crossing pattern that some call 'wheat sheaf' done to the main tubes on marques such as Ciocc that nobody could track down, but Deda tubing with such treatment was confirmed NOT to have ever been made as such by the Deda factory. Nobody (except for Gilco and Colnago) claim that the crimping/shaping/fluting actually makes a positive contribution to strength or other performance, but perhaps it might in some cases and perhaps it's only cosmetic in most cases. YMMV.
10-05-17, 11:19 AM
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Cinelli and Columbus are both owned by the same family, so for Cinelli to use a Columbus product would be a no-brainer. However, having said that, I rather doubt that this is a Cinelli and hope to be proven wrong once you have photos. The story of some pro having used the bike is obviously not true as Cinelli had not sponsored any pro teams back then.
10-06-17, 01:25 AM
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Hello,
Thank you for all your comments and information.
I have done a lot of "rooting around" on here and on the 'net and the acquisition of Cinelli by Columbus in the 1970's is stated elsewhere. Gilco Design certainly were active in the design etc. of many products; whether they were a subsidiary company or were loosely connected to Columbus, I don't know.
They were obviously involved with Columbus tubing as the decals for Columbus MS proclaim, but whether they had any hand in the fluting / crimping etc. of Columbus tubing I can't verify.
On here and elsewhere there are examples, with photographs of fluted frames apparently similar if not identical, to the frame that I have bought in Italy.
Incidentally, the frame which was shipped this past Monday with UPS is of today's date, still in Germany !
FedEx normally ship from Italy to the UK in three days and the Italian postal service in five days.
As I understood from the seller, this frame was made with SL tubing for the professional rider's own use, not for a team. It would be highly unlikely that a team would allow a rider to sell one of their frames, in my opinion.
There are on this bicycle's frame, remnants of decals which from the ebay photographs, I can't identify and it won't be for several days now before I actually take delivery.
If some kind person was able to put the ebay photographs in the meantime on here for me, then please email me :-- oldlampman@oldlampman.karoo.co.uk and I will send them to him / her.
I'm keeping an open mind on this frame, it has a Cinelli fork and therefore the Columbus impress mark will be, or should be, at the base of the steerer tube. The Columbus impress mark is usually also found at the bottom end front of the seat tube but I wont be searching for that under paintwork.
I will weigh the frame and check the angles to see if it is a SL tubed frame.
Your interest is greatly appreciated.
Why I have to copy this and log-in / "Post Quick Reply" again really annoys me [You do not have permission etc] !
Thank you for all your comments and information.
I have done a lot of "rooting around" on here and on the 'net and the acquisition of Cinelli by Columbus in the 1970's is stated elsewhere. Gilco Design certainly were active in the design etc. of many products; whether they were a subsidiary company or were loosely connected to Columbus, I don't know.
They were obviously involved with Columbus tubing as the decals for Columbus MS proclaim, but whether they had any hand in the fluting / crimping etc. of Columbus tubing I can't verify.
On here and elsewhere there are examples, with photographs of fluted frames apparently similar if not identical, to the frame that I have bought in Italy.
Incidentally, the frame which was shipped this past Monday with UPS is of today's date, still in Germany !
FedEx normally ship from Italy to the UK in three days and the Italian postal service in five days.
As I understood from the seller, this frame was made with SL tubing for the professional rider's own use, not for a team. It would be highly unlikely that a team would allow a rider to sell one of their frames, in my opinion.
There are on this bicycle's frame, remnants of decals which from the ebay photographs, I can't identify and it won't be for several days now before I actually take delivery.
If some kind person was able to put the ebay photographs in the meantime on here for me, then please email me :-- oldlampman@oldlampman.karoo.co.uk and I will send them to him / her.
I'm keeping an open mind on this frame, it has a Cinelli fork and therefore the Columbus impress mark will be, or should be, at the base of the steerer tube. The Columbus impress mark is usually also found at the bottom end front of the seat tube but I wont be searching for that under paintwork.
I will weigh the frame and check the angles to see if it is a SL tubed frame.
Your interest is greatly appreciated.
Why I have to copy this and log-in / "Post Quick Reply" again really annoys me [You do not have permission etc] !
10-06-17, 05:19 AM
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You can't post a link to the ebay auction? Waiting to figure out what a frame is after you bought it and had it shipped is not always a good idea.
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One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
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One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
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10-06-17, 01:33 PM
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I have been rebuilding / restoring complete, incomplete bicycles and frames from the UK, USA, France and Italy for well over sixty years and therefore I've almost a sixth sense as to what is "right" and might possibly be dodgy.
This Cinelli bicycle looks correct in detail and therefore I've every confidence that it is a genuine item.
I have never been sold a dud that I know of and perhaps generously, I do believe and trust the cycling fraternity.
I had never seen during the past decades, another brand of frame apart from Colnago, who used fluted tubes. I now know that there are several brands who have used fluted tubes, possibly from Columbus but also from others.
I have yet to be certain that Columbus produced them, I guess they probably did so but I can't find any record that they did. I'm presuming that they produced a modified SL tube set for the Cinelli which I have bought.
After purchase, there is no public record of an ebay sale but I have the details of this ebay auction recorded elsewhere, for reference if the bicycle is not what it has been purported to be.
Time will tell !
If anyone emails me and requests, I will send them a drive-side copy of the Cinelli bicycle photograph, which is one of several from the now dead auction site.
This Cinelli bicycle looks correct in detail and therefore I've every confidence that it is a genuine item.
I have never been sold a dud that I know of and perhaps generously, I do believe and trust the cycling fraternity.
I had never seen during the past decades, another brand of frame apart from Colnago, who used fluted tubes. I now know that there are several brands who have used fluted tubes, possibly from Columbus but also from others.
I have yet to be certain that Columbus produced them, I guess they probably did so but I can't find any record that they did. I'm presuming that they produced a modified SL tube set for the Cinelli which I have bought.
After purchase, there is no public record of an ebay sale but I have the details of this ebay auction recorded elsewhere, for reference if the bicycle is not what it has been purported to be.
Time will tell !
If anyone emails me and requests, I will send them a drive-side copy of the Cinelli bicycle photograph, which is one of several from the now dead auction site.
10-06-17, 03:18 PM
#14
Banned.
Sold and unsold items certainly do show on eBay. I searched completed auctions, and could not find and bike resembling yours. All you have to do is list the item number.
Dont make it so hard to help.
Dont make it so hard to help.
10-06-17, 03:55 PM
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Cinelli Only: 1980s Cinelli "CX" ???
10-06-17, 04:11 PM
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10-06-17, 04:12 PM
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Maybe one of the overseas eBay sites ....
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10-06-17, 04:51 PM
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the transaction price indicates skepticism to me.
If not authentic, then it at least looks useful as a bike.
If not authentic, then it at least looks useful as a bike.
10-06-17, 04:55 PM
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Hmmmm.......
Not seeing any expected typical Cinelli details like maybe at least a Cinell BB shell?.....or their typical chrome accents on the lugs.
The decals look very iffy too...... especially the definition around the flying "C"'s........
It still looks like a good quality frame though, but not sure if it is Cinelli good. Maybe better pics would help....
Not seeing any expected typical Cinelli details like maybe at least a Cinell BB shell?.....or their typical chrome accents on the lugs.
The decals look very iffy too...... especially the definition around the flying "C"'s........
It still looks like a good quality frame though, but not sure if it is Cinelli good. Maybe better pics would help....
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10-06-17, 04:58 PM
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I am no expert but that doesn't look real to me. It doesn't have the typical Cinelli seat stay treatment. The fork crown might well be a Cinelli but I don't think the whole frame is.
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One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
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10-06-17, 05:02 PM
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Thanks for posting them! I am having trouble posting pics or I would have.
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One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk