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Claude Butler Identification

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Claude Butler Identification

Old 10-05-17, 06:49 AM
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Claude Butler Identification

Hi Guys,

I've come across an old bike with a big box of spares in an old shed. The frame number is simply 830 on both the steering stem and on the frame itself. IT has Nervex lugs and the Olympic logo, same as this pic found online.

Any idea what vintage it may be? I know the nervex lugs werent around until later, however the 3 digit frame numbers have thrown me a bit.

Any expertise would be appreciated. I can get some more pics tomorrow...
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Old 10-05-17, 12:54 PM
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Good Day dougie995 and welcome to the forum.

Certainly late enough to be a Holdsworthy product.

Funny that person stamping serial got the numeral eight right side up on the steerer and upside down on the shell.

Readers would need to see more images of things such as sideview of head, seat cluster, dropouts. Also a full side view from the right side would be helpful.

One frequently encountered road model is the Torino. This is the Butler version of the Holdsworth Mistral.

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Old 10-05-17, 08:19 PM
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Low number places it as an early 60's Holdsworthy Claud.

Wonder which Nervex lugs it has? Serie Legere were on Coureur and Olympic while Nervex Pro was on Cordon Bleu which seems to be the more common frame one runs into these days.

Perhaps you have but if you look at early 60's Claud catalogues on nkilgariff.com you should be able to sort it out.

As Juvela says really can't take any further without pics. Looking forward to seeing details!
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Old 10-06-17, 07:51 AM
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More photos

Thanks for the welcome and the info guys!

Here are some more photos. I can just make out the words Agrati on the bottom of the front forks.

Looking at the Cordon Bleu, the lug design seems different to what I have but the rear ends do look the same. I have looked on nkilgariff.com but cant find all the catalogues...

Thanks again for your help, keen to see what you think.

Doug
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Old 10-06-17, 11:48 AM
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Hi Doug

I think those are not Nervex but rather "continental" French Prugnat (62S?) lugs. Prugnat first introduced by Holdsworthy in 1963. The rear dropouts don't look like Agrati as on Cordon Bleu. Simpler pressed steel. Looks to me like Challenge frame. I believe this is same frame as Classique and European but built up differently. Likely a '63. Have a look at kilgariff catalog. Just click catalog then click model.

Doug

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Old 10-06-17, 02:21 PM
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Yes, lug set Prugnat 62/s.

Agrati ends set and presence of lubrication fitting on shell are helpful dating aids.

Relatively early in the Holdsworthy time.



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Old 10-07-17, 05:18 PM
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Doug

In case still some problems loading '63 catalogue of Challenge I'll attach a copy. Also found a good example of a Challenge model on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/oldspo...h/15244850798/

Juvela, good point re position of oiler. Even without the serial, with the 2 facts that in Holdsworth production the oiler seems to change from top of BB to bottom round about '64 and that Holdsworthy only started using Prugnat lugs in 1963 narrows this frame to '63 or '64.

The added evidence that Holdsworthy for some reason abandoned CB previous date coded serials (From VCC and the Lightweights Cycle Catalogues Vol l) and restarted simple sequential numbers early 60's (lasting only for several years) again points to this frame being a 1963. I have seen other CB's with similar low serials claiming to be 1963. Numbers in early 60's are confusing.


Doug
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Old 10-08-17, 01:03 AM
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Hi guys, thanks again.

I meant the bottom bracket was Nervex, I got my terminology mixed up!

Mine looks identical to the one in the flikr photos, unreal detective work.

Now to just get it all repainted and back on the road!

Kind regards,

Doug Allen
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Old 10-08-17, 06:33 AM
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Hi Doug,

Yes, the Challenge on Flickr is in very good shape. If not original paint, from catalogue description I think that bike is very accurate re paint scheme and decals. Will you restore to original? A personal choice of course! I know (maybe you are aware) those decals are all available at HLloyd's Cycles in England. Here's link to catalogue if interested: https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com.../pdf-catalogue

Will be interesting to see final product.

Is your last name Allen as well or is that a typo?

Cheers,
Doug Allen
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Old 10-08-17, 07:42 AM
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I'm a Doug Allen as well, I've never come across another until now!

I've actually got a bit of baby blue 2 Pack from a cafe racer I painted which I was thinking of using, along with orange highlights reminiscent of the Gulf Racing colourscheme, however I'm not certain on that. I really like the gold colour of some old Claudes... I'd seen the decals available from bicycledecals.net, but hadn't seen the H Lloyd ones...

I'm also not sure how much I want to spend on the bike, there is a lot of chrome that is very dodgy, but getting it redone can be really expensive, so im not 100% sure what way I'm going to go. The Campagnolo Gransport deraileur is particularly deteriorated...

I sort of stumbled onto the bike and am not a massive bike rider, so don't really want to spend $1000 unexpectedly...

It will likely take a fair while to get done, however I'll certainly update this thread with progress pics!

Thanks again for the help!
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Old 10-08-17, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by dougie995
I'm a Doug Allen as well, I've never come across another until now!

I've actually got a bit of baby blue 2 Pack from a cafe racer I painted which I was thinking of using, along with orange highlights reminiscent of the Gulf Racing colourscheme, however I'm not certain on that. I really like the gold colour of some old Claudes... I'd seen the decals available from bicycledecals.net, but hadn't seen the H Lloyd ones...

I'm also not sure how much I want to spend on the bike, there is a lot of chrome that is very dodgy, but getting it redone can be really expensive, so im not 100% sure what way I'm going to go. The Campagnolo Gransport deraileur is particularly deteriorated...

I sort of stumbled onto the bike and am not a massive bike rider, so don't really want to spend $1000 unexpectedly...

It will likely take a fair while to get done, however I'll certainly update this thread with progress pics!

Thanks again for the help!
Welcome. You would make a lot of people happy, myself included, if your project is thoroughly photographed and continued on this or a new thread. I think that would be an awesome color choice.
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Old 10-09-17, 11:51 AM
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addendumb on Agrati ends -

they made at least three models of ends sets which are unmarked.

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Old 10-09-17, 12:49 PM
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Juvela

I did not know that the lower end (to my eye) pressed steel dropouts on Challenge are also Agrati.

Only the Cordon Bleu is advertised in '63 CB catalog as having Agrati ends (presumably as higher end) and ad shows a pic of a rear Agrati dropout that is the forged model I am acquainted with. From what I have seen that model dropout usually does have Agrati stamped on it.

Thanks
Doug
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Old 10-13-17, 07:55 AM
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Hello Doug,

Thanks so much for sharing this outstanding Holdsworthy information. Much appreciated here.

As to Agrati ends. Did not intend to identify subject frame's dropouts as Agrati. My error in not writing more clearly. Since the fork ends are Agrati marked it seems a possibility that the dropouts are theirs as well but I have no hard information.

The ends set seen on the Cordon Bleu model was used widely by British makers in the 1950's and early 1960's. Have an unknown British 1950's era frame with them hanging in me racks. The forum has had a Rattray posted recently with them also. I do not know a name or model number for this set. My one Agrati resource is an undated catalogue, which from internal clues, I take to be near to 1970. It depicts a simple stamped ends set similar to the various models done by Francolam. There is also depicted a replica of the Campag 1010 set termed the "CORSA." The set seen on the subject bicycle and the set seen on the Cordon Bleu are not shown so I take them to have been discontinued by the time of the catalogue's publication.

Thank you again for your information.

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Old 10-13-17, 02:41 PM
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I have a Tandem I suspect is a Claud Butler with a serial number D617 Does this ring any bells?
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Old 10-15-17, 10:22 PM
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Great information guys! Much appreciated. I think I will slowly get this bike restored, might take a few months as most of my spare cash is going into a first house deposit fund! I'll try to get the paint at least done in the next month or so, sunny Queensland is not so sunny at the moment and the prep takes a long time. I'll probably get the original Brooke's seat, handlebar stem, campy derailleur etc rechromed too. It'll take a while, but I'll be sure to post pics along the way

Doug
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Old 12-20-17, 05:19 AM
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Derailleur work

Hi all,

I'm going to upload some of the progress pics. Unfortunately I dont have a before of the Campagnolo derailleur set from when I first got them. The chrome was absolutely wrecked. I didn't want to spend several hundred dollars rechroming so went with a metallic paint. I stripped it back, hit it with primer and them prayed over that. It looks nowhere near as good as chrome, but it came out ok. I'll try to get a fully reassembled pic.

The four aluminium rivets holding the mechanism together were a real bugger to drill out, but not as hard as refitting new aluminium and trying to rivet it in place. What I ended up doing was drilling the ends of the 3mm alum with some carburettor regretting bits and then spreading the ends with a nail, before folding it over with the hammer. It worked pretty well but took almost two hours to get the four rivets to work properly.

I hope these photos work, I've tried about three times now without luck. I've got some pics of the frame paintwork etc too...
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