Chain learnings ...
06-01-18 | 04:56 PM
#26
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From: Berkeley CA
Bikes: 1981 Ron Cooper, 1974 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, 1975 Alex Singer, 2000 Gary Fisher Sugar 1, 1986 Miyata 710, 1982 Raleigh "International", 1985 Trek 720
Pushing pins out and back in is a no-no with decent 7/8-speed chains, too. Cheap chains with the protruding pin ends, sure, but it's not something I'd want to do with my SRAM PC-850/870s that have flush riveted pins. I have a perfect record of chains never pulling apart that I don't care to chance. 
06-01-18 | 05:12 PM
#27
I AM AI
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From: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: 2008 S-Works Roubaix SL, 1979 Raleigh Comp GS, 1978 Schwinn Volare
*But I fully expect it next ride due to my typing that.
__________________
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
Last edited by Fahrenheit531; 06-01-18 at 05:19 PM.
06-02-18 | 04:47 AM
#28
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This just looks like a link that was pushed too far in when the chain was re-riveted. You (your wife) "bent" the chain using off-chainline gears. This pushed the outer plates out a touch and the plate on the far side slipped off the now too-short protrusion. You can simply pull out your tool and push that plate back on, then carefully center the pin and the chain will be ready to go. (I'd go with a new PC-1 if simply for the reason that this is your wife's bike. Infinitely small chance of failure vs catastrophic results-marriage? Not worth the risks. 
)
Riveting chains of 9-speed or above is a no-no because the pins are peened and the flare from the peening will damage the hole in the plate when it is drive through. Plate is still plenty strong but the snug fit is no longer there, hence a quick-link of some type with a positive locking mechanism. But with 6-7-8 speed and below the pins are just simple,. clean cylinders and barely affect the snug fit when driven and redriven. (Do look carefully at both outer plates if you decide to re-use this. If you see no distortion they should be fine.) Chain manufacturers include quick-links now with all chains because we expect it and to protect themselves from klutzes. 35 years ago, the same chains came without.
Ben
)Riveting chains of 9-speed or above is a no-no because the pins are peened and the flare from the peening will damage the hole in the plate when it is drive through. Plate is still plenty strong but the snug fit is no longer there, hence a quick-link of some type with a positive locking mechanism. But with 6-7-8 speed and below the pins are just simple,. clean cylinders and barely affect the snug fit when driven and redriven. (Do look carefully at both outer plates if you decide to re-use this. If you see no distortion they should be fine.) Chain manufacturers include quick-links now with all chains because we expect it and to protect themselves from klutzes. 35 years ago, the same chains came without.
Ben
WRT the extreme off-chainline combinations: I did use them on the stand and some short test rides up and down the street to dial-in the derailleurs and make sure nothing would go wrong, but mrs non-fixie is getting better at understanding how these things work, so the big-big and small-small combinations are getting less use each season.
It does raise the question of the width of a four-speed block. As they were apparently used with 1/8" chains, I can't imagine they would be much narrower that a five-speed's 24mm.
06-02-18 | 04:54 AM
#29
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That's weird, I have the KMC X8-99 3/32 on mine without any issues.
06-02-18 | 09:08 AM
#30
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Bikes: 78 Masi Criterium, 68 PX10, 2016 Mercian King of Mercia, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr
Case # 1: The Broken Chain
Case # 2: The Split Link
This happened three days ago. Mrs non-fixie had just done a 70k ride in the rain. I had the bike on the stand, had cleaned it and was doing a final check of the derailleurs. Suddenly the chain jammed in the RD, apparently because a chain plate had caught the derailleur cage. I un-jammed it and this was what the chain, an almost new SRAM PC-1, looked like:
As this chain was a little too long anyway I just removed the link, put it back together and everything seemed fine after that, but since I don't know what caused the problem, I'm not fully comfortable with the situation. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for any input.
Case # 2: The Split Link
This happened three days ago. Mrs non-fixie had just done a 70k ride in the rain. I had the bike on the stand, had cleaned it and was doing a final check of the derailleurs. Suddenly the chain jammed in the RD, apparently because a chain plate had caught the derailleur cage. I un-jammed it and this was what the chain, an almost new SRAM PC-1, looked like:
As this chain was a little too long anyway I just removed the link, put it back together and everything seemed fine after that, but since I don't know what caused the problem, I'm not fully comfortable with the situation. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for any input.
That said, IMO that's too much assumption. I'm not familiar with that particular chain, but it wouldn't surprise me if the rivets were at least partly peened. The whole skill of joining a chain to itself is becoming a lost art, and I am skeptical that any modern 1/8" chains are designed to be self joined. Safe bet is to use the provided masterlink. Since this particular SRAM masterlink is appparently designed for fixed/single speed applications only, the KMC sounds like the best option at this point. Let us know if it works.
From what I can tell though, the KMC 1/8" chain use the old type of masterlink with a circlip. I don't think that would work with a derailleur. Maybe it will join better using it's own rivets. EDIT - strike that. It won't. Fully peened rivets.
Last edited by Salamandrine; 06-02-18 at 09:22 AM.
06-02-18 | 09:21 AM
#31
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Bikes: 78 Masi Criterium, 68 PX10, 2016 Mercian King of Mercia, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr
KMC do make a single use (they say) KMC type quick link that should work with the X101 in your application. It appears that you must purchase this separately, and that the chain comes with a bulky old fashioned masterlink. Not sure though. Maybe it comes with this.
MissingLink X101 non-reusable for BMX, Fixie & Track | KMC Chain
MissingLink X101 non-reusable for BMX, Fixie & Track | KMC Chain
Last edited by Salamandrine; 06-02-18 at 09:38 AM.
06-02-18 | 11:15 AM
#32
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From: South Holland, NL
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KMC do make a single use (they say) KMC type quick link that should work with the X101 in your application. It appears that you must purchase this separately, and that the chain comes with a bulky old fashioned masterlink. Not sure though. Maybe it comes with this.
MissingLink X101 non-reusable for BMX, Fixie & Track KMC Chain
MissingLink X101 non-reusable for BMX, Fixie & Track KMC Chain
I just came to the same conclusion, and for that price (~ $50) I hope to find that link in the box.
06-03-18 | 02:55 PM
#33
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We went out for a test ride today. 60km, with the repaired chain. Other than a pair of dirty hands from loosening a stiff link a couple of miles in, there were no mishaps, and the velo ran as smoothly as ever.
06-03-18 | 03:59 PM
#34
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... is what I hope to get out of this post.
I can't remember ever having any real problems with chains. If there ever was an issue, it was because the chain was either too long, too short, too wide or too narrow. In all those cases it was pretty obvious what the cause was, and subsequently dealt with.
This week, however I've had two problems of a different kind. Equally easy to deal with, it seems, but since I'm not sure of the cause, I feel less confident about the resolutions' success.
Case # 1: The Broken Chain
Happened this evening, as I was climbing a local unevenness on a bike I'd just acquired and had given a quick once-over. I had my full weight on the pedal, when the chain broke. Interesting experience! I managed to stay upright and on the bike, but going uphill with no drive meant I had to dismount rather swiftly to prevent further problems.
The chain in question is pictured below. The obvious solution is a new chain, of course. But why did this link break?
Thanks in advance for any input.
I can't remember ever having any real problems with chains. If there ever was an issue, it was because the chain was either too long, too short, too wide or too narrow. In all those cases it was pretty obvious what the cause was, and subsequently dealt with.
This week, however I've had two problems of a different kind. Equally easy to deal with, it seems, but since I'm not sure of the cause, I feel less confident about the resolutions' success.
Case # 1: The Broken Chain
Happened this evening, as I was climbing a local unevenness on a bike I'd just acquired and had given a quick once-over. I had my full weight on the pedal, when the chain broke. Interesting experience! I managed to stay upright and on the bike, but going uphill with no drive meant I had to dismount rather swiftly to prevent further problems.
The chain in question is pictured below. The obvious solution is a new chain, of course. But why did this link break?
Thanks in advance for any input.
Steve in Peoria
06-03-18 | 05:10 PM
#35
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From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
I've had a few broken chains from time to time, usually pulling apart as in the second photo. I don't think I've ever ruptured plates.
I got some Shimano (supposedly) HG73 9s chains with quick links and no pin. I chose to just push a pin out and back in.
I decided to mark the chains by scoring the side plates with a file (up side away from my sprockets). I think I broke at least one or two chains, but I could never prove the problem was my reusing a pin.
I seemed to skip 10s... mostly.
With 11s, so far I haven't broken a chain (HG700), and now hopefully migrating to Wippermann.
I got some Shimano (supposedly) HG73 9s chains with quick links and no pin. I chose to just push a pin out and back in.
I decided to mark the chains by scoring the side plates with a file (up side away from my sprockets). I think I broke at least one or two chains, but I could never prove the problem was my reusing a pin.
I seemed to skip 10s... mostly.
With 11s, so far I haven't broken a chain (HG700), and now hopefully migrating to Wippermann.
06-21-18 | 04:06 PM
#36
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From: South Holland, NL
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Update for those who are interested:
The KMC X101 finally arrived on the morning of our departure to the Retroronde. The bikes were already in the car, so I decided to leave well enough alone and bring the KMC along as a spare. A visual inspection of the repaired PC-1 had yielded nothing out of the ordinary.
Anyway, it survived the gruesome Belgian cobblestones of the Retroronde, where other stuff came off or rattled out of adjustment, as well as mashing up the famous Koppenberg during a pre-ride test, where mrs non-fixie had her 'Skibby moment':
It didn't miss a beat during a three-day tour in the rolling hills of northern France, near de Pas de Calais, where, BTW, the weather was clear enough to see the white cliffs of Dover on the other side:
And it didn't protest under the clunky shifts of the Allvit while negotiating the hills and the white roads of the Peak District during Eroica Britannia:
I will be keeping an eye on that chain, but I think it's safe to say that the repair was successful, and for the time being the KMC will stay in its box.
The KMC X101 finally arrived on the morning of our departure to the Retroronde. The bikes were already in the car, so I decided to leave well enough alone and bring the KMC along as a spare. A visual inspection of the repaired PC-1 had yielded nothing out of the ordinary.
Anyway, it survived the gruesome Belgian cobblestones of the Retroronde, where other stuff came off or rattled out of adjustment, as well as mashing up the famous Koppenberg during a pre-ride test, where mrs non-fixie had her 'Skibby moment':
It didn't miss a beat during a three-day tour in the rolling hills of northern France, near de Pas de Calais, where, BTW, the weather was clear enough to see the white cliffs of Dover on the other side:
And it didn't protest under the clunky shifts of the Allvit while negotiating the hills and the white roads of the Peak District during Eroica Britannia:
I will be keeping an eye on that chain, but I think it's safe to say that the repair was successful, and for the time being the KMC will stay in its box.
06-22-18 | 10:42 AM
#37
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I recently had a failure of a SRAM PC-1. It was the snaplink that broke. My first thought was this is a millions and millions served chain and it was just a fluke. Now I wonder. Original installation of the chain was done by a PhD mechanical engineer who also has 45 years shop experience pitching in at his brother's LBS. And has built a good number of frames for top competition use. Pretty sure chain was installed correctly. Chain was used on fixed gear DL-1, two years, maybe 3000 miles. I had the original leftover link (just one, DL-1 has a long chainstay) and installed it the old way. The join looks good. The failure looked like plain metal fatigue. All the other bikes in the house are on vintage chain and it will stay that way. They don't make 'em like they used to.
06-22-18 | 11:05 AM
#39
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Just to make sure: this thread was not intended to prove any inadequacy on the part of SRAM or the PC-1. I'm fairly sure that I am the inadequate one here, because of making two mistakes:
1. I left the chain a couple of links too long;
2. I didn't push the pin back in far enough when reconnecting.
The first made the chain jam up when back-pedaling in the small-small combination on the work stand. The second enabled the side plate to come loose and get caught by the dérailleur cage.
The way it has held up during the past two weeks makes me think I've at least resolved these two issues.
Eroica Limburg next week and La Savoureuse in August. I'll keep you posted wrt chain behaviour.
1. I left the chain a couple of links too long;
2. I didn't push the pin back in far enough when reconnecting.
The first made the chain jam up when back-pedaling in the small-small combination on the work stand. The second enabled the side plate to come loose and get caught by the dérailleur cage.
The way it has held up during the past two weeks makes me think I've at least resolved these two issues.
Eroica Limburg next week and La Savoureuse in August.
I'll keep you posted wrt chain behaviour.
06-22-18 | 11:13 AM
#40
~>~
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From: TX Hill Country
Mine soldiers on faultlessly meandering up and down its 3 cog range just like in the old days of Schwinn Approved Union German 1/2 X 1/8 chains that were used for decades. When worn out another PC-1 will most likely replace it ( installed with a rivet tool) as my faith in the old Sedis, now SRAM, chain remains undimmed.
-Bandera
06-22-18 | 11:17 AM
#41
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From: Canada
Bikes: 1988 Kuwahara Newport, 1983 Nishiki, 1984 Diamond Back Viper, 1991 Dyno Compe
Case #1 I think you need to invest in a chain wear gauge like this https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5015-070/Chain-Wear-Gauge I think the chain stretched out until it broke.
06-22-18 | 11:40 AM
#42
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From: South Holland, NL
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06-22-18 | 04:21 PM
#43
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From: South Holland, NL
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Case #1 I think you need to invest in a chain wear gauge like this https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5015-070/Chain-Wear-Gauge I think the chain stretched out until it broke.
In this particular case it happened with this bike I'd just bought. The seller had told me at least three times that it could not be ridden anymore, and that the bike was for display purposes only. Having seen the pics in the ad, I'd made a bet with myself that it wouldn't need much more than a bit of air in the tubes, a clean and and a lube:
So, right after picking up the bike and taking this picture, I put some air in the tires, adjusted the saddle, tightened the FD cable and went off for a ride. Almost at the end, a couple of hundred yards from my home, is a short incline, where I stood on the pedals, and that's where the chain snapped.
06-22-18 | 05:23 PM
#44
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From: GTA
Bikes: Jack Taylor Tandem, Oscar Egg Routier
Hello Mr Non-fixie,
The old thick TA chainring you have is a 1/8" chainring. Could have been for track use or for use on an old 3 speed derailleur bike. Requires a 1/8" chain as you know. SRAM PC-1 or a new old stock Sachs-Sedis SV3 probably your best bet. Check that the chain doesn't foul the derailleur or freewheel.
Reid
The old thick TA chainring you have is a 1/8" chainring. Could have been for track use or for use on an old 3 speed derailleur bike. Requires a 1/8" chain as you know. SRAM PC-1 or a new old stock Sachs-Sedis SV3 probably your best bet. Check that the chain doesn't foul the derailleur or freewheel.
Reid
06-22-18 | 08:35 PM
#45
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From: south kansas america
Bikes: too many
In the first chain case, if you closely examine the edges where the chain link(s) broke... if part of the break edge is darker in color, or if the area looks smoother, it indicates that the chain had a partial break in this area. Newly snapped edges will be lighter (as dirt/oil will not worked it's way into the broken area like in any previously broken area). Also, in the area of the chain that may have broken first, the micro movement within the crack area works to knock down and smooth the exposed grain structure in the metal. My assumption would be that the chains doom probably first started with some micro fractures caused by some side over bending moment, possibly due to being jammed between chainring, or something similar. Then time, repeated loading, constant movement... all worked on it till it finally gave out when it was hit with a slightly greater load than normal. Once one area of a link broke, a chain reaction of breaking probably occurred. I'm guessing, as the pictures would need to be much more zoomed into the edges.
06-23-18 | 06:05 PM
#46
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From: Canada
Bikes: 1988 Kuwahara Newport, 1983 Nishiki, 1984 Diamond Back Viper, 1991 Dyno Compe
Thanks. I actually have one, but I rarely use it. Whenever I service and/or rebuild a bike I tend to replace the chain anyway, and given the number of bikes I have, I am never, ever going to wear out a chain myself.
In this particular case it happened with this bike I'd just bought. The seller had told me at least three times that it could not be ridden anymore, and that the bike was for display purposes only. Having seen the pics in the ad, I'd made a bet with myself that it wouldn't need much more than a bit of air in the tubes, a clean and and a lube:
So, right after picking up the bike and taking this picture, I put some air in the tires, adjusted the saddle, tightened the FD cable and went off for a ride. Almost at the end, a couple of hundred yards from my home, is a short incline, where I stood on the pedals, and that's where the chain snapped.
In this particular case it happened with this bike I'd just bought. The seller had told me at least three times that it could not be ridden anymore, and that the bike was for display purposes only. Having seen the pics in the ad, I'd made a bet with myself that it wouldn't need much more than a bit of air in the tubes, a clean and and a lube:
So, right after picking up the bike and taking this picture, I put some air in the tires, adjusted the saddle, tightened the FD cable and went off for a ride. Almost at the end, a couple of hundred yards from my home, is a short incline, where I stood on the pedals, and that's where the chain snapped.
This is speculation on my part but I think you don't see chains breaking as often these days because one of the signs of a worn chain can be trouble shifting. Where as old bikes like these you could still shift with the friction shifters so people got much more mileage out of them.
06-25-18 | 10:20 AM
#47
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From: South Holland, NL
Bikes: Yes, please.
I'm sitting next to the bike and I've checked with a straight edge, but can't see anything out of order. Perhaps some camera lens distortion?
The fork has probably been tampered with, though, as it looks like the ends have been replaced at some point in time.
The fork has probably been tampered with, though, as it looks like the ends have been replaced at some point in time.
06-28-18 | 12:06 PM
#48
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From: GWN
Case # 2: The Split Link
This happened three days ago. Mrs non-fixie had just done a 70k ride in the rain. I had the bike on the stand, had cleaned it and was doing a final check of the derailleurs. Suddenly the chain jammed in the RD, apparently because a chain plate had caught the derailleur cage. I un-jammed it and this was what the chain, an almost new SRAM PC-1, looked like:
As this chain was a little too long anyway I just removed the link, put it back together and everything seemed fine after that, but since I don't know what caused the problem, I'm not fully comfortable with the situation. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for any input.
This happened three days ago. Mrs non-fixie had just done a 70k ride in the rain. I had the bike on the stand, had cleaned it and was doing a final check of the derailleurs. Suddenly the chain jammed in the RD, apparently because a chain plate had caught the derailleur cage. I un-jammed it and this was what the chain, an almost new SRAM PC-1, looked like:
As this chain was a little too long anyway I just removed the link, put it back together and everything seemed fine after that, but since I don't know what caused the problem, I'm not fully comfortable with the situation. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for any input.
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