how do I know which way to turn a fixed cup on an 1984 CIOCC? I picked up an old CIOCC awhile back and am getting around to stripping it down and cleaning it up. I've removed the non drive side and both the cup and lock ring were right hand threads, I assume the fixed cup is left hand threads... but is it? the threading I.D. on the cups/ spindle are 36x24F, 70.

Thanks,
Steve

Italian threaded (36 x 24, 70 mm) means both cups are right handed.

Italian or English BB?

Definitely RH threads on BOTH sides of the BB -- the tip is the 36mm diameter x 24 TPI.

I LOLed - because it's true

DD

Not to derail the thread, by why does everyone say this? I've been riding only Italian frames w/Italian threaded BBs since 1983 and I've never had one loosen up.

Because you have had the good fortune to have had the fixed cup tightened until it screamed for mercy and/or had pipe thread tape put on the threads and/or had it held in place by LocTite (blue, not red, unless you never want to be able to remove it ever again, although some say you should never ever use any kind of LocTite for this application). It is not hard to have this never happen, but it is also not hard to slip up and end up doing the Fixed Cup Unscrewed Walk of Shame.

Some of us (me and apparently [MENTION=168558]Drillium Dude[/MENTION] and [MENTION=150273]thinktubes[/MENTION] included) have had the unpleasant experience of installing an Italian BB, not doing one or more of the above, and having the fixed cup come loose 10 to 15 miles into the first ride. It happens because, as the drive side bearings spin with the BB axle, the outer part of the bearing is trying to push a right-hand threaded cup in the direction you would spin it to make it come out. (By contrast, with a left-hand threaded British fixed cup, the bearings are trying to push the cup in the direction that tightens the cup.) It sounds like there is no way that tiny little bit of force could do more than loosen the cup more than a tiny little bit, but multiply that tiny little bit of movement by 70 to 100 rpm and multiply that by however many minutes it takes you to go 10 to 15 miles, and it adds up to a walk home or a phone call for a pick up.

I've been there (and boy, did my riding buddy give me rations of cr*p for it), and it sounds like Drillium Dude and thinktubes have, too. In my case, it happened exactly once, and I swore a mighty swear that it would never happen again. I bet that is true of these other two fine gents as well.

[MENTION=168558]Drillium Dude[/MENTION] and [MENTION=150273]thinktubes[/MENTION] too

Fixed cups loosening while riding was more common during the 1970's when components and frame quality was lower. Undersized threads on the cups and oversized BB threads, especially when they'd been chased by someone who didn't have good tools or didn't know how to use them resulted in loose fits.

I have had and have seen fixed cups on French bikes come loose far more often than on Italian bikes. Fortunately I sensed that the BB was coming loose and was able to tighten the cup by hand (several times) enough to get back to the car or home. After that I started using Loctite on cups that came loose.

When I overhaul BBs I make sure that the threads are clean and free of crud and rust. I have set of VAR BB taps and chase the threads if needed. Before reassembling, I run the cups in by hand. If they are too loose, I apply some Loctite Blue - amount depends on looseness. The threads have to clean and grease free for Loctite to work well.



One of my best tool investments was a VAR Fixed Cup BB tool. When I tighten fixed cups they stay tight!



Here's a cheap, easy solution per Sheldon Brown RIP. A bolt, nut and some washers.



I was out riding with a friend an number of years back. He was on his 2006 Lemond Sarthe with Bontrager outboard bearing cranks. He kept saying his cranks were feeling weird. We stopped and I discovered the the drive side BB bearing had come loose. I tighten it by hand and we made it to a high end bike shop a few miles away. The so called mechanics put the bike up on a stand but couldn't see the problem.

That was the first time I'd ever seen an outboard bearing BB up close but I was able to show them how to tighten it. DOH! Those BBs come loose too.

verktyg

Neither have I, until this year, anyway.

I overhauled my wife's bike over the winter, and she had the fixed cup come loose twice already. I even installed it using the Campagnolo #793 and the cheater pipe, and it still came loose! The last time I re-assembled I put blue LockTite on the threads. So far, so good.

In my experience, equally important is the alignment of the thread cut with the axis of the shell and the squareness of the shell face. The greater the deviation of the thread cut and/or shell face relative to the axis, the smaller the contact area between the cup and shell face.This decreases the level of static friction necessary to resist the hypocyclic fretting precession. Of course the the thread profile and and tightness also factors, but the quality of the interaction with the shell face sis often overlooked.

Adding my $0.25 worth..... I have two bikes with Italian threaded BBs, both are Ciocc. One is running an old school Campy loose bearing bottom bracket installed with the VAR #30 tool shown in Post #8 above. The other has a Shimano Dura Ace cartridge assembly installed with the Park BBT-32 tool and a Crescent wrench. I did not used Loctite or tape. I did apply a light "smear" of anti-seize to make sure I could get them out later. No torque wrench involved here, I just "leaned" on the wrench handles the same way I do with my bikes that have left-hand threads on the drive side.

One bike has a sh*tload of miles and the other has a mere heap of miles. I completely understand and agree with the physics cited by other posters to this thread, but I have never had a problem with the drive side backing out. I don't question the unfavorable experiences of others who have had trouble with Italian threaded BBs, but it is not a given.

Dean

Awesome, thanks for all of the answers!

You all were indeed correct, the only hangup I ran into was the po used red threadlock on it, but a little judicial use of the electric heat gun resolved that!

Thanks again,
Steve

I just want to add, I've never used pipe tape or Loctite on any of my BBs. I just grease the threads. When I was using old loose ball Campy BBs, I would just clamp the Campy tool with a wood block (to keep it from slipping off the faces) and lean on it. I've never weighed more than 140 lbs. in my life so I wasn't going "ape sh*t" on it. I've now switched over to Campy cartridge BBs and I grease those and just torque 'em to spec. Also, I remove them at least every 10,000 or so miles, just to make sure they don't really seize-up.

My Concorde, still has the original cup n'cone BB, Never came loose. Was installed by an Italian. My Ciocc (84) never came loose , until I had My LBS install a cartridge BB, about 5 years ago. KB

Doh! I was tired and it was late and I forgot to mention facing off the BB shell...

.

I've found that some BB shells are so poorly faced that there's only a very small area of contact with the fixed cup and adjustable cup lock ring. When properly faced the cups and lock ring will make complete contact with the BB shell reducing the possibility of coming loose.

verktyg

I've built up a lot of Italian frames. One used to come loose on me and I put a lot of grease on the threads and tightened it down good and it's been fine.

In my experience, my fixed Italian cups never loosened, but I always torqued them pretty tight. I put the tool in a big vise and use the frame as a lever if possible.