To Tubular or Not To Tubular, that is the question.
09-09-18, 11:00 AM
#126
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Have you read your own?
You are the continuously prattling about new tech in a vintage forum. Why? Must be that you care what others use.
Or are you saying sealant has a magical ability to not flat with a sidewall gash? I hope not, because that type of stupidity is only for a select few.
Here is another thing that will make you wring your tiny little hands. Pretty much no difference between a tubular filled with sealant and a tubeless. But please, go ahead and tell us in very long paragraphs the tiny nuanced differences that don't matter to 99.99999% of the population.
You are the continuously prattling about new tech in a vintage forum. Why? Must be that you care what others use.
Or are you saying sealant has a magical ability to not flat with a sidewall gash? I hope not, because that type of stupidity is only for a select few.
Here is another thing that will make you wring your tiny little hands. Pretty much no difference between a tubular filled with sealant and a tubeless. But please, go ahead and tell us in very long paragraphs the tiny nuanced differences that don't matter to 99.99999% of the population.
I am curious - exactly what are you arguing about and why? I don't care if you ride some tire invented in 1902 and claim that it is the best ever. You make even CAMPYBOB's arguments seem like works of Shakespeare.
09-09-18, 11:16 AM
#127
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OK - I'm late to this party. I ride tubulars and clinchers, and I ride almost daily.
There is a huge amount of confusion in this thread regarding the relative merits of tubulars and clinchers. First off, I will state that tubular tires are likely no better than similarly-priced tubular tires. I cannot tell a difference on the bike.
However: the key insurmountable advantage of the tubular system is the rim. To repeat: the RIM. Look at a clincher rim profile: see those two hooks required to hold on the clincher (or tubeless) tire? These are heavy at the worst place on a bike (rotating weight). Because the hooks face the ground, they are subject to impacts; because of this, the rims have to be further reinforced, adding still more weight. These hooks are sharp, and cause pinch flats, which in my experience is the #1 cause of flats overall. Finally, the space between the hooks is dead volume, and does nothing to protect the tire against impacts, or to cushion the ride, which is the purpose of pneumatic tires in the first place. So all things being equal, tubular tires carry more effective air volume, and ride about one size larger.
I'll skip the safety arguments: a high-speed blowout on tubulars vs. clinchers. For this reason alone I'm spooked when I am riding on clinchers.
Is there a reason why all elite-level riding is done on tubulars in the past, now, and until the end of time? Yes - it is because the tubular rim/tire system is simply superior - for insurmountable reasons. The RIM.
There is a huge amount of confusion in this thread regarding the relative merits of tubulars and clinchers. First off, I will state that tubular tires are likely no better than similarly-priced tubular tires. I cannot tell a difference on the bike.
However: the key insurmountable advantage of the tubular system is the rim. To repeat: the RIM. Look at a clincher rim profile: see those two hooks required to hold on the clincher (or tubeless) tire? These are heavy at the worst place on a bike (rotating weight). Because the hooks face the ground, they are subject to impacts; because of this, the rims have to be further reinforced, adding still more weight. These hooks are sharp, and cause pinch flats, which in my experience is the #1 cause of flats overall. Finally, the space between the hooks is dead volume, and does nothing to protect the tire against impacts, or to cushion the ride, which is the purpose of pneumatic tires in the first place. So all things being equal, tubular tires carry more effective air volume, and ride about one size larger.
I'll skip the safety arguments: a high-speed blowout on tubulars vs. clinchers. For this reason alone I'm spooked when I am riding on clinchers.
Is there a reason why all elite-level riding is done on tubulars in the past, now, and until the end of time? Yes - it is because the tubular rim/tire system is simply superior - for insurmountable reasons. The RIM.
09-09-18, 11:32 AM
#128
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The wonder of steel frame/fork and good tires. In the first ride of the Sannow Sport I always go to a section of awful chip seal and ride it going and coming the Pasela's and the steel frame/fork of the Sannow Sport let me control the pace over this bad chip seal, rather than the chip seal surface controling how fast/much pain I would put up with. It all just worked, you add effort you go faster, rather than you add effort to over come the shocks/vibrations of the chip seal surface to maintain speed, and that's with the 28cm, with the 32cm it will only be better.
So what became of the Mavic Tubular rims and tubular tires? They now hang in honor on the garage wall, functional art, and their tubular tires? Still holding air after 40+ years ... a meditation on hope for the years to come and the journeys yet to take, even as I age.
Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions.
So what became of the Mavic Tubular rims and tubular tires? They now hang in honor on the garage wall, functional art, and their tubular tires? Still holding air after 40+ years ... a meditation on hope for the years to come and the journeys yet to take, even as I age.
Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions.
I just got my Colnago CLX together and haven't installed tubeless yet since I'm still working out the bug. It is a good rider but the ride is too damn rough for the roads here. Tubeless and less pressure should fix that. I can't tell you the horror of a road I descended yesterday with no shoulder and construction trucks rolling down without touching their brakes. I managed to make it to a slightly wider section and pulled over before a truck rolled over me. As it passed there was another close behind but I didn't have room to allow it to pass since the road was too steep to stop in time. So I had to jump out and get on it. But then DIRECTLY ahead was torn up asphalt and water leaking all over the place. As I hit that section the hard tires on the Colnago hit so hard that my bars rotated. I couldn't brake for a minute while I regained my balance with the bars rotated down 30 degrees. There was a small opening to the left between construction trucks and I dodged through that to make the left turn lane. I managed to stop for a light that just changed as two more trucks ran the yellow because they were going far too fast for their brakes to stop them. Anyone that thinks that hard tires are good should have their heads examined. And NO I would not normally be on a road like that but Google Maps routed me on there for no discernable reason since it was NOT in the correct direction. First I was climbing at 7% and more as construction trucks were coming by full throttle in both lanes. Then when I got to the top of that climb so I could pull around the corner the Google Maps showed that I was going in totally the incorrect direction. Down below it kept saying, "Make a U-turn" and then when I did it would say, "Make a U-turn." Finally I gave up finding the start of the century and went home. 140 miles of driving for nothing. Moral of the story - if the directions for finding a start begin with "Park at the Kaiser facility" do not enter that ride. There turned out to be 15 clinics, the Hospital and other such place in that area. I "assumed" they meant the hospital but whatever they meant sure wasn't obvious because when I finally got back to my car and looked again it said that there were 13 more minutes of riding to hit the starting area. Since I had already lost 45 minutes I bagged it.
09-09-18, 11:41 AM
#129
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So @since6 - Does your clincher decision make a tubular wheelset available to a local?
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09-09-18, 11:55 AM
#130
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OK - I'm late to this party. I ride tubulars and clinchers, and I ride almost daily.
There is a huge amount of confusion in this thread regarding the relative merits of tubulars and clinchers. First off, I will state that tubular tires are likely no better than similarly-priced tubular tires. I cannot tell a difference on the bike.
However: the key insurmountable advantage of the tubular system is the rim. To repeat: the RIM. Look at a clincher rim profile: see those two hooks required to hold on the clincher (or tubeless) tire? These are heavy at the worst place on a bike (rotating weight). Because the hooks face the ground, they are subject to impacts; because of this, the rims have to be further reinforced, adding still more weight. These hooks are sharp, and cause pinch flats, which in my experience is the #1 cause of flats overall. Finally, the space between the hooks is dead volume, and does nothing to protect the tire against impacts, or to cushion the ride, which is the purpose of pneumatic tires in the first place. So all things being equal, tubular tires carry more effective air volume, and ride about one size larger.
I'll skip the safety arguments: a high-speed blowout on tubulars vs. clinchers. For this reason alone I'm spooked when I am riding on clinchers.
Is there a reason why all elite-level riding is done on tubulars in the past, now, and until the end of time? Yes - it is because the tubular rim/tire system is simply superior - for insurmountable reasons. The RIM.
There is a huge amount of confusion in this thread regarding the relative merits of tubulars and clinchers. First off, I will state that tubular tires are likely no better than similarly-priced tubular tires. I cannot tell a difference on the bike.
However: the key insurmountable advantage of the tubular system is the rim. To repeat: the RIM. Look at a clincher rim profile: see those two hooks required to hold on the clincher (or tubeless) tire? These are heavy at the worst place on a bike (rotating weight). Because the hooks face the ground, they are subject to impacts; because of this, the rims have to be further reinforced, adding still more weight. These hooks are sharp, and cause pinch flats, which in my experience is the #1 cause of flats overall. Finally, the space between the hooks is dead volume, and does nothing to protect the tire against impacts, or to cushion the ride, which is the purpose of pneumatic tires in the first place. So all things being equal, tubular tires carry more effective air volume, and ride about one size larger.
I'll skip the safety arguments: a high-speed blowout on tubulars vs. clinchers. For this reason alone I'm spooked when I am riding on clinchers.
Is there a reason why all elite-level riding is done on tubulars in the past, now, and until the end of time? Yes - it is because the tubular rim/tire system is simply superior - for insurmountable reasons. The RIM.
Also, I can't even remember the last time I got a pinch flat. There are two causes of clincher flats here - steel wires that are thrown off from worn out steel-belted tires and a thorn we call "goatshead" that would puncture a glass ball.
Several weeks ago I hit something on my second outing with my tubeless tires. Whatever it was, was large enough to cause a "thump, thump, thump" on the front tire and since there was bright sunshine and I was in the shade I couldn't see what it was. I reached down and brushed what felt like something large off with my glove and stopped to look. The Orange sealant had stopped the leaks so fast that no discernable air was lost. That totally sold me on tubeless since just the week before a person on the ride had to replace the tube on a flat FOUR times in order to get his flat repaired. It took over 1/2 hour. So personally I am sold on tubeless. And I remember way back when most of us used tubulars when we would forget to replace the flatted tubular when we got home from a ride (we'd put off fixing it because it was so difficult to repair) and then get a flat next ride only to discover that the spare was also flat - as were as many as THREE others in the group.
So this pretense that there is something special about tubulars is pretty fantastic to me. They never rode better as far as I could tell. They DID come off especially if you replaced one on the road and then didn't re-glue it when you got home. The shop-type glue was hard to come by then. So we all used "consumer" glue and it came in a small tube so we tended to use less than we should have and so the tires were always questionable. It was that red stuff with putty-like consistency. You ALWAYS had to use previous glued tires when replacing them on the road because is was necessary to have both surfaces with glue on them. So you couldn't carry a "new" spare. Anyway they were always a pain in the butt and I could see no ride advantage from them.
09-09-18, 12:24 PM
#131
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I’m excited about the future of tubeless and I also am a C&V kind of guy. Which for me means that I think tubular tires are pretty fantastic as well!
Cyclintom: I appreciate your enthusiasm for how tubeless can be compatible with being “classic & vintage”. I posted a thread recently where I talked about purposely using 126mm 6/7 speed cassette hubs laced to the current Mavic Open Pro UST tubeless rims. The response to my thread was minimal and the thread fizzled out. The sublime ride of a vintage steel racing bike, ride optimized with a modern tubeless lower PSI wheel/tire system is a marriage made in heaven.
If if you want to make converts cyclintom, please tell us about which specific rims and tires you are using along with anything helpful such as type of rim tape or sealant you are using. Some photos always helps to win converts. Going on bizarre anti-tubular tire rants is not winning you any friends in this forum. Are you serious when you said you threw a bunch of NOS tubulars in the trash? I guess you were pretty mad at those damn tubulars because they must have had a decent resale value on eBay if you had taken the time to pass them on to others more willing to do the gluing ritual and anything else necessary to run them successfully.
+1 to Dave Mayer’s post about clincher rim sidewalls being a weak spot of clinchers. I have a new set of Campagnolo Bora Ultra 2014 Shimano freehub tubular wheels that I have in the box waiting for a build. These are the narrower rimmed version that may play better with vintage frames that could be more limited to the narrow tire sizes due to a low brake bridge. I have some Continental Grand Prix 4000 tubulars that are begging to be paired with the Boras. My super cheap eBay Klein Quantum 1988 frame is calling to the Boras saying: “we belong together in our future marriage as a late 80’s climbing bike”. I’ve never seen anyone give much of a review of the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars which is odd because the Continental Grand Prix 4000 ll clincher is the most ubiquitous clincher in these parts on the club rides I frequent. I’d say 75% of the ladies and gents in my club are running them. While they (the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars) are “tubular” in construction, the Continental’s are not “sew-ups”. This is due to the TUFO-esque manufacturing technique of overlapping plies that are somehow vulcanized and not sewn. They appear as if they will mount up straight and “hump” free on just about any tubular rim regardless of any center channel. I would be willing to post a review here how it works out if this experience could benefit others.
I purchased the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars in size 25mm a few years ago from World Class Cycles which is located in Maine. (I thought they were from Brooklyn or Queens, NY, maybe they moved). I don’t think Continental makes this tire in this size anymore for some reason. The 22mm width appears to be the only size currently available, but I would not hesitate to use the 22’s. The 25’s just have the potential to ride just a little more amazing-ly. These are available on-line for as low as $71 each if you look around - $$ well spent if you ask me.
Cyclintom: I appreciate your enthusiasm for how tubeless can be compatible with being “classic & vintage”. I posted a thread recently where I talked about purposely using 126mm 6/7 speed cassette hubs laced to the current Mavic Open Pro UST tubeless rims. The response to my thread was minimal and the thread fizzled out. The sublime ride of a vintage steel racing bike, ride optimized with a modern tubeless lower PSI wheel/tire system is a marriage made in heaven.
If if you want to make converts cyclintom, please tell us about which specific rims and tires you are using along with anything helpful such as type of rim tape or sealant you are using. Some photos always helps to win converts. Going on bizarre anti-tubular tire rants is not winning you any friends in this forum. Are you serious when you said you threw a bunch of NOS tubulars in the trash? I guess you were pretty mad at those damn tubulars because they must have had a decent resale value on eBay if you had taken the time to pass them on to others more willing to do the gluing ritual and anything else necessary to run them successfully.
+1 to Dave Mayer’s post about clincher rim sidewalls being a weak spot of clinchers. I have a new set of Campagnolo Bora Ultra 2014 Shimano freehub tubular wheels that I have in the box waiting for a build. These are the narrower rimmed version that may play better with vintage frames that could be more limited to the narrow tire sizes due to a low brake bridge. I have some Continental Grand Prix 4000 tubulars that are begging to be paired with the Boras. My super cheap eBay Klein Quantum 1988 frame is calling to the Boras saying: “we belong together in our future marriage as a late 80’s climbing bike”. I’ve never seen anyone give much of a review of the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars which is odd because the Continental Grand Prix 4000 ll clincher is the most ubiquitous clincher in these parts on the club rides I frequent. I’d say 75% of the ladies and gents in my club are running them. While they (the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars) are “tubular” in construction, the Continental’s are not “sew-ups”. This is due to the TUFO-esque manufacturing technique of overlapping plies that are somehow vulcanized and not sewn. They appear as if they will mount up straight and “hump” free on just about any tubular rim regardless of any center channel. I would be willing to post a review here how it works out if this experience could benefit others.
I purchased the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars in size 25mm a few years ago from World Class Cycles which is located in Maine. (I thought they were from Brooklyn or Queens, NY, maybe they moved). I don’t think Continental makes this tire in this size anymore for some reason. The 22mm width appears to be the only size currently available, but I would not hesitate to use the 22’s. The 25’s just have the potential to ride just a little more amazing-ly. These are available on-line for as low as $71 each if you look around - $$ well spent if you ask me.
Last edited by masi61; 09-09-18 at 05:59 PM.
09-09-18, 12:30 PM
#132
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I more or less agree with your analysis but will add that there is a weight difference between tubular and clincher rims but it is only an ounce or so. Since in my experience tubular tires are significantly heavier than clinchers (note: I buy good clinchers) the rotating weight has always seemed the same to me. I gave up on tubulars a long time ago when I threw a tubular because I hadn't re-glued the thread-covering cloth well enough and it simply peeled off.
Also, I can't even remember the last time I got a pinch flat. There are two causes of clincher flats here - steel wires that are thrown off from worn out steel-belted tires and a thorn we call "goatshead" that would puncture a glass ball.
Several weeks ago I hit something on my second outing with my tubeless tires. Whatever it was, was large enough to cause a "thump, thump, thump" on the front tire and since there was bright sunshine and I was in the shade I couldn't see what it was. I reached down and brushed what felt like something large off with my glove and stopped to look. The Orange sealant had stopped the leaks so fast that no discernable air was lost. That totally sold me on tubeless since just the week before a person on the ride had to replace the tube on a flat FOUR times in order to get his flat repaired. It took over 1/2 hour. So personally I am sold on tubeless. And I remember way back when most of us used tubulars when we would forget to replace the flatted tubular when we got home from a ride (we'd put off fixing it because it was so difficult to repair) and then get a flat next ride only to discover that the spare was also flat - as were as many as THREE others in the group.
So this pretense that there is something special about tubulars is pretty fantastic to me. They never rode better as far as I could tell. They DID come off especially if you replaced one on the road and then didn't re-glue it when you got home. The shop-type glue was hard to come by then. So we all used "consumer" glue and it came in a small tube so we tended to use less than we should have and so the tires were always questionable. It was that red stuff with putty-like consistency. You ALWAYS had to use previous glued tires when replacing them on the road because is was necessary to have both surfaces with glue on them. So you couldn't carry a "new" spare. Anyway they were always a pain in the butt and I could see no ride advantage from them.
Also, I can't even remember the last time I got a pinch flat. There are two causes of clincher flats here - steel wires that are thrown off from worn out steel-belted tires and a thorn we call "goatshead" that would puncture a glass ball.
Several weeks ago I hit something on my second outing with my tubeless tires. Whatever it was, was large enough to cause a "thump, thump, thump" on the front tire and since there was bright sunshine and I was in the shade I couldn't see what it was. I reached down and brushed what felt like something large off with my glove and stopped to look. The Orange sealant had stopped the leaks so fast that no discernable air was lost. That totally sold me on tubeless since just the week before a person on the ride had to replace the tube on a flat FOUR times in order to get his flat repaired. It took over 1/2 hour. So personally I am sold on tubeless. And I remember way back when most of us used tubulars when we would forget to replace the flatted tubular when we got home from a ride (we'd put off fixing it because it was so difficult to repair) and then get a flat next ride only to discover that the spare was also flat - as were as many as THREE others in the group.
So this pretense that there is something special about tubulars is pretty fantastic to me. They never rode better as far as I could tell. They DID come off especially if you replaced one on the road and then didn't re-glue it when you got home. The shop-type glue was hard to come by then. So we all used "consumer" glue and it came in a small tube so we tended to use less than we should have and so the tires were always questionable. It was that red stuff with putty-like consistency. You ALWAYS had to use previous glued tires when replacing them on the road because is was necessary to have both surfaces with glue on them. So you couldn't carry a "new" spare. Anyway they were always a pain in the butt and I could see no ride advantage from them.
Maybe the reason people find you and your Posts "annoying" is the way they are written. You spew on and on with 400 word paragraphs about "facts" you see on you tube. Quite frankly I started to read your last 2 posts and my eyes got tired and bored after the first two sentences. And I automatically assumed that the rest of the post was just drivel too. But maybe it's just me. I should set my Drivel threshold a little higher.
09-09-18, 01:56 PM
#133
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I’m excited about the future of tubeless and I also am a C&V kind of guy. Which for me means that I think tubular tires are pretty fantastic as well!
Cyclintom: I appreciate your enthusiasm for how tubeless can be compatible with being “classic & vintage”. I posted a thread recently where I talked about purposely using 126mm 6/7 speed cassette hubs laced to the current Mavic Open Pro UST tubeless rims. The response to my thread was minimal and the thread fizzled out. The sublime ride of a vintage steel racing bike, ride optimized with a modern tubeless lower PSI wheel/tire system is a marriage made in heaven.
If if you want to make converts cyclintom, please tell us about which specific rims and tires you are using along with anything helpful such as type of rim tape or sealant you are using. Some photos always helps to win converts. Going on bizarre anti-tubular tire rants is not winning you any friends in this forum. Are you serious when you said you threw a bunch of NOS tubulars in the trash? I guess you were pretty mad at those damn tubulars because they must have had a decent resale value on eBay if you had taken the time to pass them on to others more willing to do the gluing ritual and anything else necessary to run them successfully.
+1 to Dave Mayer’s post about clincher rim sidewalls being a weak spot of clinchers. I have a new set of Campagnolo Bora Ultra 2014 Shimano freehub tubular wheels that I have in the box waiting for a build. These are the narrower rimmed version that may play better with vintage frames that could be more limited to the narrow tire sizes due to a low brake bridge. I have some Continental Grand Prix 4000 tubulars that are begging to be paired with the Boras. My super cheap eBay Klein Quantum 1988 frame is calling to the Boras saying: “we belong together in our future marriage as a late 80’s climbing bike”. I’ve never seen anyone give much of a review of the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars which is odd because the Continental Grand Prix 4000 ll clincher is he most ubiquitous clincher in these parts on the club rides I frequent. I’d say 75% of the ladies and gents in my club are running them. While they (the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars) are “tubular” in construction, the Continental’s are not “sew-ups”. This is due to the TUFO-esque manufacturing technique of overlapping plies that are somehow vulcanized and not sewn. They appear as if they will mount up straight and “hump” free on just about any tubular rim regardless of any center channel. I would be willing to post a review here how it works out if this experience could benefit others.
I purchased the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars in size 25mm a few years ago from World Class Cycles which is located in Maine. (I thought they were from Brooklyn or Queens, NY, maybe they moved). I don’t think Continental makes this tire in this size anymore for some reason. The 22mm width appears to be the only size currently available, but I would not hesitate to use the 22’s. The 25’s just have the potential to ride just a little more amazing-ly. These are available on-line for as low as $71 each if you look around - $$ well spent if you ask me.
Cyclintom: I appreciate your enthusiasm for how tubeless can be compatible with being “classic & vintage”. I posted a thread recently where I talked about purposely using 126mm 6/7 speed cassette hubs laced to the current Mavic Open Pro UST tubeless rims. The response to my thread was minimal and the thread fizzled out. The sublime ride of a vintage steel racing bike, ride optimized with a modern tubeless lower PSI wheel/tire system is a marriage made in heaven.
If if you want to make converts cyclintom, please tell us about which specific rims and tires you are using along with anything helpful such as type of rim tape or sealant you are using. Some photos always helps to win converts. Going on bizarre anti-tubular tire rants is not winning you any friends in this forum. Are you serious when you said you threw a bunch of NOS tubulars in the trash? I guess you were pretty mad at those damn tubulars because they must have had a decent resale value on eBay if you had taken the time to pass them on to others more willing to do the gluing ritual and anything else necessary to run them successfully.
+1 to Dave Mayer’s post about clincher rim sidewalls being a weak spot of clinchers. I have a new set of Campagnolo Bora Ultra 2014 Shimano freehub tubular wheels that I have in the box waiting for a build. These are the narrower rimmed version that may play better with vintage frames that could be more limited to the narrow tire sizes due to a low brake bridge. I have some Continental Grand Prix 4000 tubulars that are begging to be paired with the Boras. My super cheap eBay Klein Quantum 1988 frame is calling to the Boras saying: “we belong together in our future marriage as a late 80’s climbing bike”. I’ve never seen anyone give much of a review of the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars which is odd because the Continental Grand Prix 4000 ll clincher is he most ubiquitous clincher in these parts on the club rides I frequent. I’d say 75% of the ladies and gents in my club are running them. While they (the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars) are “tubular” in construction, the Continental’s are not “sew-ups”. This is due to the TUFO-esque manufacturing technique of overlapping plies that are somehow vulcanized and not sewn. They appear as if they will mount up straight and “hump” free on just about any tubular rim regardless of any center channel. I would be willing to post a review here how it works out if this experience could benefit others.
I purchased the Grand Prix 4000 tubulars in size 25mm a few years ago from World Class Cycles which is located in Maine. (I thought they were from Brooklyn or Queens, NY, maybe they moved). I don’t think Continental makes this tire in this size anymore for some reason. The 22mm width appears to be the only size currently available, but I would not hesitate to use the 22’s. The 25’s just have the potential to ride just a little more amazing-ly. These are available on-line for as low as $71 each if you look around - $$ well spent if you ask me.
Sidewalls are the weak spot on all tires. Still, I haven't had a sidewall flat that I can remember. Though I did find some cuts that I replaced the tire for JIC.
Most of the wheels that sell now are tubeless capable so I see little point in saying Campy and Fulcrum wheels. All of the Mavic wheels are tubeless capable now. Even the cheapest ones. Most of the people here are using Gatorskins because of the road conditions. But now every manufacturer is making armored tires.
09-09-18, 02:01 PM
#134
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Just a thought...
Maybe the reason people find you and your Posts "annoying" is the way they are written. You spew on and on with 400 word paragraphs about "facts" you see on you tube. Quite frankly I started to read your last 2 posts and my eyes got tired and bored after the first two sentences. And I automatically assumed that the rest of the post was just drivel too. But maybe it's just me. I should set my Drivel threshold a little higher.
Maybe the reason people find you and your Posts "annoying" is the way they are written. You spew on and on with 400 word paragraphs about "facts" you see on you tube. Quite frankly I started to read your last 2 posts and my eyes got tired and bored after the first two sentences. And I automatically assumed that the rest of the post was just drivel too. But maybe it's just me. I should set my Drivel threshold a little higher.
if you don't like my postings then simply don't read them. Or are you one of those social media people who are frightened that someone may be talking about you. Personally I couldn't care LESS what you think of my postings; they are intended to convey information to people who might need it. I got rich supervising people like you until they said something like that within my hearing and had to find other work.
09-09-18, 03:56 PM
#135
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I more or less agree with your analysis but will add that there is a weight difference between tubular and clincher rims but it is only an ounce or so. Since in my experience tubular tires are significantly heavier than clinchers (note: I buy good clinchers) the rotating weight has always seemed the same to me. I gave up on tubulars a long time ago when I threw a tubular because I hadn't re-glued the thread-covering cloth well enough and it simply peeled off.
Also, I can't even remember the last time I got a pinch flat. There are two causes of clincher flats here - steel wires that are thrown off from worn out steel-belted tires and a thorn we call "goatshead" that would puncture a glass ball.
Also, I can't even remember the last time I got a pinch flat. There are two causes of clincher flats here - steel wires that are thrown off from worn out steel-belted tires and a thorn we call "goatshead" that would puncture a glass ball.
We have a different definition of pinch flats (aka snakebite flats). I get pinch flats when I hit something so hard that the tube gets pinched between the tire and the sharp edges of the clincher rim hooks. When I was mountain biking extensively, this is about the only type of flat I got, which was a lot. The smoother edges of the tubular rim almost eliminates these. For this reason, elite-level mountain biking is done on tubulars (not tubeless). Yes, tubulars. The second-tier guys and gals get lesser solutions.
09-09-18, 06:18 PM
#136
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My good tubulars are 195g/tire. I'm not finding many clinchers + tubes any lighter than that.
I have experienced exactly the pinch flats Dave has described, on tires/tubes that have carried me 70 miles into an 88-mile trip, one pothole on a descent that rattled my cage and also flatted the tire. I've had the same type of pinch flat during a triathlon.
I've not had a flat with a tubular. Maybe I'm more careful.
I won't have the privilege of a certain member's answer, because with the Ignore function, it's not an issue. But I will quote his objective finding: my tubular wheelsets
lighter and smoother and more confidence-building than my clincher wheelsets
So of course, therefore, they are.
I have experienced exactly the pinch flats Dave has described, on tires/tubes that have carried me 70 miles into an 88-mile trip, one pothole on a descent that rattled my cage and also flatted the tire. I've had the same type of pinch flat during a triathlon.
I've not had a flat with a tubular. Maybe I'm more careful.
I won't have the privilege of a certain member's answer, because with the Ignore function, it's not an issue. But I will quote his objective finding: my tubular wheelsets
seem
seem.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 09-09-18 at 06:26 PM.
09-10-18, 08:24 AM
#137
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So I ride 250 gram tubulars. Middle of the road tires. So you are saying that your clincher tires, tubes and rim strip comes in less than that? Again, tubular rims are inherently lighter (by roughly 150g per rim) than tubular rims due to the extra 'hooks' necessary on clinchers (including tubeless).
We have a different definition of pinch flats (aka snakebite flats). I get pinch flats when I hit something so hard that the tube gets pinched between the tire and the sharp edges of the clincher rim hooks. When I was mountain biking extensively, this is about the only type of flat I got, which was a lot. The smoother edges of the tubular rim almost eliminates these. For this reason, elite-level mountain biking is done on tubulars (not tubeless). Yes, tubulars. The second-tier guys and gals get lesser solutions.
We have a different definition of pinch flats (aka snakebite flats). I get pinch flats when I hit something so hard that the tube gets pinched between the tire and the sharp edges of the clincher rim hooks. When I was mountain biking extensively, this is about the only type of flat I got, which was a lot. The smoother edges of the tubular rim almost eliminates these. For this reason, elite-level mountain biking is done on tubulars (not tubeless). Yes, tubulars. The second-tier guys and gals get lesser solutions.
Why are you talking about mountain bike tires and pinch flats? I've been looking around and damned if I can find tubular MTB wheels or tires. Exactly why would you bring apples into a discussion of oranges most especially since MTB tires are almost universally tubeless now to avoid the pinch flats you were talking about?
I have to wonder why you are bothering to argue these stupid points if you'll forgive my bluntness.
The tests are irrefutable. They have been done by virtually every tire manufacturer and they ALL show more or less the same thing.
Arguing that somehow tubulars "ride better" when I know damn well that they don't after 40 years of riding only tells me that either people are far more sensitive than I am or they are allowing themselves to be affected by the sheer "romance" of sitting around for hours gluing tires onto rims. And this must sure as hell grow old fast to the newer generation of riders because 2/3rds of the "used" high end wheels for sale are tubulars. And if you look at the braking surface on them there's no wear. I guess one ride is enough that they don't feel any difference either.
People that are arguing about how fine the ride of tubulars are seem to be nothing more than plain everyday riders like myself and probably you. Are you a racer with a team car following with replacement wheels? If not why would you talk about perhaps a third of a lb difference in overall weight? A large water bottle weighs over a lb. Do you go on long rides without a water bottle? I never went on a ride without two tubulars and a pump. Perhaps you're different? Repairing a tube with a patch you can do on the road. Tell us all about how you repair your tubular on the road? I had a couple of months of rain earlier this year that made a dent in my mileage. And then I had a glaucoma operation which knocked me out of action for another month and a half. I have 3,300 miles on the bike so far for the year and 115,000+ feet of climbing. Does that sound like I'm more likely to worry more about a couple of ounces of weight or not getting a flat at 42 mph on a downhill?
I'm simply wondering why you or anyone else would argue about tubulars being better than tubeless.
Last edited by cyclintom; 09-10-18 at 08:30 AM.
09-10-18, 08:35 AM
#138
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if you don't like my postings then simply don't read them. Or are you one of those social media people who are frightened that someone may be talking about you. Personally I couldn't care LESS what you think of my postings; they are intended to convey information to people who might need it. I got rich supervising people like you until they said something like that within my hearing and had to find other work.
humility as you were picking yourself off the floor afterwards.
09-10-18, 08:39 AM
#139
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My good tubulars are 195g/tire. I'm not finding many clinchers + tubes any lighter than that.
I have experienced exactly the pinch flats Dave has described, on tires/tubes that have carried me 70 miles into an 88-mile trip, one pothole on a descent that rattled my cage and also flatted the tire. I've had the same type of pinch flat during a triathlon.
I've not had a flat with a tubular. Maybe I'm more careful.
I won't have the privilege of a certain member's answer, because with the Ignore function, it's not an issue. But I will quote his objective finding: my tubular wheelsets lighter and smoother and more confidence-building than my clincher wheelsets
So of course, therefore, they are.
I have experienced exactly the pinch flats Dave has described, on tires/tubes that have carried me 70 miles into an 88-mile trip, one pothole on a descent that rattled my cage and also flatted the tire. I've had the same type of pinch flat during a triathlon.
I've not had a flat with a tubular. Maybe I'm more careful.
I won't have the privilege of a certain member's answer, because with the Ignore function, it's not an issue. But I will quote his objective finding: my tubular wheelsets lighter and smoother and more confidence-building than my clincher wheelsets
So of course, therefore, they are.
You don't get flats on your tubulars because you're "more careful". I suppose that you only ride on swept race courses. One can imagine your results.
09-10-18, 09:18 AM
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Coming back from Vietnam me and another AF, a lieutenant, were put on a commercial flight that was filled with Army rotating out. When we hit LA international there was a mob of protesters there. They were screaming things like "BABY KILLERS" and worse. I had an overnight bag in one hand and the entire flight of us were walking down to baggage to get our duffle. These creeps were standing within inches of us screaming insults as loud as they could in our ears. But you get tired of killing people and Americans are supposed to be the good guys. Suddenly one of those bastards spit on my uniform and before he could step back I broke his jaw. He was knocked out and went down like a sack of flour. A couple of cops came running down to grab me and stopped in their tracks. They were surrounded by an entire planeload of Army that were so pissed they could hardly see straight. They backed away from me and picked up that piece of garbage and took him away. There was dead quiet as the group of us continued on down to baggage, I guess it never occurred to the draft dodgers that they could imperil themselves. As we were walking down to baggage the soldiers kept me surrounded and the one next to me said - "You fly boys are OK".
Since that time only three people were stupid enough to try to fight me. I backed away each one of them until they kept coming. Every one of them went to the hospital and every one was permanently disabled in one way or another. Most people from east Oakland don't take any **** from anyone but the service taught me to take a whole lot of it from your superior officers and NCOs. So I take it but only to a certain point.
If you think that you could knock me down I invite you to try. At almost 74 that should make it easy for you. But perhaps not.
Last edited by cyclintom; 09-10-18 at 09:40 AM.
09-10-18, 09:39 AM
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My good tubulars are 195g/tire. I'm not finding many clinchers + tubes any lighter than that.
I have experienced exactly the pinch flats Dave has described, on tires/tubes that have carried me 70 miles into an 88-mile trip, one pothole on a descent that rattled my cage and also flatted the tire. I've had the same type of pinch flat during a triathlon.
I've not had a flat with a tubular. Maybe I'm more careful.
I won't have the privilege of a certain member's answer, because with the Ignore function, it's not an issue. But I will quote his objective finding: my tubular wheelsets lighter and smoother and more confidence-building than my clincher wheelsets
So of course, therefore, they are.
I have experienced exactly the pinch flats Dave has described, on tires/tubes that have carried me 70 miles into an 88-mile trip, one pothole on a descent that rattled my cage and also flatted the tire. I've had the same type of pinch flat during a triathlon.
I've not had a flat with a tubular. Maybe I'm more careful.
I won't have the privilege of a certain member's answer, because with the Ignore function, it's not an issue. But I will quote his objective finding: my tubular wheelsets lighter and smoother and more confidence-building than my clincher wheelsets
So of course, therefore, they are.
No more pinch flats. Plus a nicer ride and a good weight reduction. What's not to like.
09-10-18, 10:53 AM
#142
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The difference in weight between tubular and clincher rims is about 7 ounces with the tubular wheelset being lighter. The difference between tubular and clincher tires is about 3.5 ounces with the clinchers being lighter. Ultralight tubes if you want to pretend that those sorts of weights are even detectable by pro sprinters weigh 1 ounce apiece. Perhaps sprinters use tubulars because there are some paper thin cotton cored pro tires available at $300 apiece that are good for about two races and weigh about another ounce lighter. Of course in order for a sprinter to derive any benefit from lighter weight tires he has to get to the finish line. And these tires flat so easily that all you have to do is give them a sharp look.
Why are you talking about mountain bike tires and pinch flats? I've been looking around and damned if I can find tubular MTB wheels or tires. Exactly why would you bring apples into a discussion of oranges most especially since MTB tires are almost universally tubeless now to avoid the pinch flats you were talking about?
….
I'm simply wondering why you or anyone else would argue about tubulars being better than tubeless.
Why are you talking about mountain bike tires and pinch flats? I've been looking around and damned if I can find tubular MTB wheels or tires. Exactly why would you bring apples into a discussion of oranges most especially since MTB tires are almost universally tubeless now to avoid the pinch flats you were talking about?
….
I'm simply wondering why you or anyone else would argue about tubulars being better than tubeless.
Tubular MTB wheels. Wiggle has them now at an outstanding price. Search for: XTR M9000. Again, these are full-on tubulars. It is easy to find tubular MTB tires online, but be prepared to pay. I was surprised that it was so easy to find this, as this is team-only kit, I thought not available to the public, as anyone who uses this stuff doesn't pay for their stuff. And they have a team mechanic. The second-string and unsponsored guys and gals are running tubeless.
Anyway, the tubular road and MTB wheel/tire combo prevents pinch flats. These is a huge advantage, on top of the weight and safety advantages. For any single one of these reasons, elite riders would only be on tubulars exclusively, but there are three reasons why clinchers (including tubeless) are significantly performance handicapped, and will never be used at the elite level.
Again, I don't know if tubular tires ride any better than clinchers: I can't tell the difference. Although you can ride tubulars at pressure you want, from basically zero or to 150+ psi, or until the tire explodes. At the low pressure range, you don't have to worry about pinch flats. At the high pressure range, since the tubular rim is isolated from inflation pressures, you can run them at very high pressures, such as with track tires.
09-10-18, 02:04 PM
#143
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First, your math doesn't work. Tubular rims are indisputably lighter and stronger - apples to applies. About 150 grams per rim. Next: I am looking at my (large) stash of new road tires: Conti Sprinters vs. Grand Prix 4000's. Comparable tires, and the Sprinters have butyl tubs. I don't buy anything with PITA latex tubes. The clincher tire and tube combo is heavier by about 20 grams per. If you are to counter with super-thin clincher tires, I can counter with 180 gram track tubular tires, but this is not a practical comparison.
Tubular MTB wheels. Wiggle has them now at an outstanding price. Search for: XTR M9000. Again, these are full-on tubulars. It is easy to find tubular MTB tires online, but be prepared to pay. I was surprised that it was so easy to find this, as this is team-only kit, I thought not available to the public, as anyone who uses this stuff doesn't pay for their stuff. And they have a team mechanic. The second-string and unsponsored guys and gals are running tubeless.
Anyway, the tubular road and MTB wheel/tire combo prevents pinch flats. These is a huge advantage, on top of the weight and safety advantages. For any single one of these reasons, elite riders would only be on tubulars exclusively, but there are three reasons why clinchers (including tubeless) are significantly performance handicapped, and will never be used at the elite level.
Again, I don't know if tubular tires ride any better than clinchers: I can't tell the difference. Although you can ride tubulars at pressure you want, from basically zero or to 150+ psi, or until the tire explodes. At the low pressure range, you don't have to worry about pinch flats. At the high pressure range, since the tubular rim is isolated from inflation pressures, you can run them at very high pressures, such as with track tires.
Tubular MTB wheels. Wiggle has them now at an outstanding price. Search for: XTR M9000. Again, these are full-on tubulars. It is easy to find tubular MTB tires online, but be prepared to pay. I was surprised that it was so easy to find this, as this is team-only kit, I thought not available to the public, as anyone who uses this stuff doesn't pay for their stuff. And they have a team mechanic. The second-string and unsponsored guys and gals are running tubeless.
Anyway, the tubular road and MTB wheel/tire combo prevents pinch flats. These is a huge advantage, on top of the weight and safety advantages. For any single one of these reasons, elite riders would only be on tubulars exclusively, but there are three reasons why clinchers (including tubeless) are significantly performance handicapped, and will never be used at the elite level.
Again, I don't know if tubular tires ride any better than clinchers: I can't tell the difference. Although you can ride tubulars at pressure you want, from basically zero or to 150+ psi, or until the tire explodes. At the low pressure range, you don't have to worry about pinch flats. At the high pressure range, since the tubular rim is isolated from inflation pressures, you can run them at very high pressures, such as with track tires.
I went to Wiggle and they had no tubular MTB wheels. And if there were any tubular MTB tires they sure were hiding. XTR M9000 is the identification number of the XTR which is Shimano's top of the line MTB group. There was no listing for any XTR wheelsets. Nor tires. You do understand that "folding" and "tubular" are different things altogether don't you?
You appear to have completely lost the entire subject of this thread. Are you like my drug addict nephew who thinks that license plates on passing cars are talking to him?
09-10-18, 02:10 PM
#144
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First, your math doesn't work. Tubular rims are indisputably lighter and stronger - apples to applies. About 150 grams per rim. Next: I am looking at my (large) stash of new road tires: Conti Sprinters vs. Grand Prix 4000's. Comparable tires, and the Sprinters have butyl tubs. I don't buy anything with PITA latex tubes. The clincher tire and tube combo is heavier by about 20 grams per. If you are to counter with super-thin clincher tires, I can counter with 180 gram track tubular tires, but this is not a practical comparison.
Tubular MTB wheels. Wiggle has them now at an outstanding price. Search for: XTR M9000. Again, these are full-on tubulars. It is easy to find tubular MTB tires online, but be prepared to pay. I was surprised that it was so easy to find this, as this is team-only kit, I thought not available to the public, as anyone who uses this stuff doesn't pay for their stuff. And they have a team mechanic. The second-string and unsponsored guys and gals are running tubeless.
Anyway, the tubular road and MTB wheel/tire combo prevents pinch flats. These is a huge advantage, on top of the weight and safety advantages. For any single one of these reasons, elite riders would only be on tubulars exclusively, but there are three reasons why clinchers (including tubeless) are significantly performance handicapped, and will never be used at the elite level.
Again, I don't know if tubular tires ride any better than clinchers: I can't tell the difference. Although you can ride tubulars at pressure you want, from basically zero or to 150+ psi, or until the tire explodes. At the low pressure range, you don't have to worry about pinch flats. At the high pressure range, since the tubular rim is isolated from inflation pressures, you can run them at very high pressures, such as with track tires.
Tubular MTB wheels. Wiggle has them now at an outstanding price. Search for: XTR M9000. Again, these are full-on tubulars. It is easy to find tubular MTB tires online, but be prepared to pay. I was surprised that it was so easy to find this, as this is team-only kit, I thought not available to the public, as anyone who uses this stuff doesn't pay for their stuff. And they have a team mechanic. The second-string and unsponsored guys and gals are running tubeless.
Anyway, the tubular road and MTB wheel/tire combo prevents pinch flats. These is a huge advantage, on top of the weight and safety advantages. For any single one of these reasons, elite riders would only be on tubulars exclusively, but there are three reasons why clinchers (including tubeless) are significantly performance handicapped, and will never be used at the elite level.
Again, I don't know if tubular tires ride any better than clinchers: I can't tell the difference. Although you can ride tubulars at pressure you want, from basically zero or to 150+ psi, or until the tire explodes. At the low pressure range, you don't have to worry about pinch flats. At the high pressure range, since the tubular rim is isolated from inflation pressures, you can run them at very high pressures, such as with track tires.
09-10-18, 02:38 PM
#145
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If you want to waste your riding time messing with glue and mounting tires, tubulars are for you. If you want to blow your money on tires rather than ungrading components, than tubular are for you.
09-10-18, 03:09 PM
#146
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I wasn't "mad" at the tubulars. No one around here uses tubulars so all they were doing was taking up space for years while I was trying to find someone to give them to. I have several good bikes I'm trying to sell - for instance, a Ridley Xbox with very few miles on it with a medium group on it. It is really a great cross bike and not ONE single call on it for $1,000 in A YEAR. I also have a Redline cross bike with a flat bar, hydraulic disks etc. and it too hasn't had a call in a year on Craig's list. Absolutely nothing but $12,000 bikes are selling in California. I've been throwing away all sort of good parts that no one else wants. I'm not going to reduce the prices on these bikes because they are already priced WELL below what it would cost to duplicate them.
Sidewalls are the weak spot on all tires. Still, I haven't had a sidewall flat that I can remember. Though I did find some cuts that I replaced the tire for JIC.
Most of the wheels that sell now are tubeless capable so I see little point in saying Campy and Fulcrum wheels. All of the Mavic wheels are tubeless capable now. Even the cheapest ones. Most of the people here are using Gatorskins because of the road conditions. But now every manufacturer is making armored tires.
Sidewalls are the weak spot on all tires. Still, I haven't had a sidewall flat that I can remember. Though I did find some cuts that I replaced the tire for JIC.
Most of the wheels that sell now are tubeless capable so I see little point in saying Campy and Fulcrum wheels. All of the Mavic wheels are tubeless capable now. Even the cheapest ones. Most of the people here are using Gatorskins because of the road conditions. But now every manufacturer is making armored tires.
I’m curious about which road specific tubeless tires you are running? (that is if you do have a straight up road bike set up for tubeless). You mentioned that most of the big brands of wheels are tubeless ready but in SW Ohio where I ride the number of tubeless road people are low from what I’ve seen. And I've heard the occasional disaster story of "tubeless ready" set ups not sealing easily with certain brands of tires.
I do have 2 Velocity A23 rimmed custom wheel sets each with latex tubes currently, but am considering converting one of them to tubeless on one of my tire changes...I’ve been reading about road tubeless quite a bit online and I do have a Mavic Cosmic Elite 2018 disc UST wheelset new in the box downstairs which I’m stoked about trying on a titanium disc frame I’m building up.
But back to this thread’s subject matter of tubular tires. Again, talking about my area of the world (SW Ohio), I am seeing more club riders out riding “tubies” than tubeless. Of the guys who I know who ride them, neither have had more than 1 flat in the past 2 years. My LBS mechanic/wheelbuilder only rides tubulars. He says the liquid sealant can throw off wheel balance in certain situations. That was the 1st time I heard that concern. He totally has the gluing process down. I think he must have glued hundreds of tubulars. He says he uses his gloved finger to apply glue to the wheel while it is slowly spun in the truing stand. He also uses sandpaper (100 grit) to rough up the rim bed prior to laying down the glue. He said that for our medium sized hills, the Continental carbon rim specific glue is not necessary. He is quite a versatile strong rider who does come to the club rides when he can make it. I want to say he runs Continental Sprinters which is the same tire that my other friend in the club is riding with good results. I did ask my mechanic if he ever considered removing the valve core of his tubular and adding 30 or 40ml of Stan’s sealant for an extra insurance policy against flats and he says that he has not.
You mentioned cyclingtom that you had trouble even giving away tubular wheels and, ...yeah, I can see how this would be. For guys that want to ride as fast as possible on the road for the least outlay of cash, it looks like used tubulars represent a screaming good value (to me). Personally I think that the there is a need for more real world bicycle rolling resistance studies that capture such variables as off axis riding (cornering) and grip on uneven surfaces. I have heard that latex tubes improve the road grip of tires (suppleness) by way of being more flexible somehow. Perhaps someone can find some studies about this. I’ve also heard that latex inner tubes can actually be more resistant to flats due to this quality. Like anything, there is a learning curve for whichever system you run with - I blew out a couple of latex tubes mounting them onto my New Michelin Power clinchers to my A23’s before I got it right.
Last edited by masi61; 09-10-18 at 03:24 PM.
09-10-18, 04:35 PM
#147
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I have converted my Pinarello Stelvio with Fulcrum Racing 3's to tubeless.using Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires. There are several videos on youTube that give instructions and there isn't anything you can do wrong. Rather than buy some stupid tank pump I just used a CO2 to set the tires on. Then let the air out, inserted the sealant and then could use a normal pump to pump them up again. They leak air enough that they will go flat overnight and you have to pump them up again until you go for a ride. The churning and pressure variations of a ride squish sealant into all of the microscopic leaks and it has been two weeks since I've ridden it and the tires are still inflated enough that I would take it on a hard ride. These are the wheels that were destroyed in a car strike,
I cannot for the life of me figure out why pros would use tubulars with all of the negatives that they have. This HAS to be habit.
Last edited by cyclintom; 09-10-18 at 04:44 PM.
09-10-18, 04:47 PM
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Maybe they are just a little bit smarter. And if they thought they could win on Tubeless they would probably use them. Those Fulcrums don't really look C&V. Pretty heavy too.
09-10-18, 05:04 PM
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The Fulcrums in that picture say Campagnolo on them and in the text I said that they were destroyed when a car hit me. The insurance bought me the Fulcrum Racing 3's which are nicer wheels. Though Fulcrum is the same company that makes the Campy wheels. I don't think you can improve on the Fulcrums.
Just got an email from an American team mechanic who says that they use tubulars because when you know what you're doing you can slam a new tubular on a rim in seconds and inflate it to pressure with a CO2 cartridge.