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Old 09-28-18, 01:17 PM
  #1  
Timmi
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Find the matching HeadBadge

Please help me identify this bike. Decals are missing (except for the winner's stripes you see in the background on the seat tube),
and the outline of the HeadBadge.

BM is stamped into the top lug. 68mm BB shell, Campagnolo dropouts. Lugs are standard straight out of the 70s Ishiwata catalogue.

Look at these countries first: IT, NL, BE, DE... the bike comes from Europe.

Many manufacturers deviated from their usual Columbus or Reynolds tubing for some models, so don't let the Ishiwata limit your thinking.
(and I don't think it would be Japanese, because when paying extra for high-end dropouts, national pride would probably have them favours Shimano D-A dropouts rather than Campagnolo).



I would love to find out what this bike is. It is very well made. I'd like to give it a paintjob and decals it deserves.

Should you know someone who may know, please flag it to them.

There is already a thread on Facebook in FB.com/groups/SteelBikes
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Old 09-28-18, 01:30 PM
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japan would be the first place Id start. Its more likely a Japanese company would use campy dropouts than a euro company using ishawata lugs or tubing.

Not italian if it has a 68mm shell, or not very likely.
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Old 09-28-18, 01:48 PM
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-----

The "BM" is actually BCM for BOCAMA, the French maker of the lugs employed to construct the frame.

The use of Ishiwata combined with euro ends and lugs suggests we are in the payes bas here.
@non-fixie and other experts on products BE and NL will be along shortly to assist...

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Old 09-28-18, 01:51 PM
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That logo isn't "BM," it's "BCM" for Bocama, a French lug manufacturer that produced zillions of lugs used on bikes built throughout Europe. Trawl this 1978 Bocama catalog and see if you can identify which model you have. The Ishawata catalog may be misdirecting you.

Measure your seatpost diameter with calipers, then the exterior of your seat tube and determine if the frame tubes are metric gauge or standard ISO/English/Imperial gauge. Top tube is what, 26 mm or 25.4 mm in diameter? Then check your BB threading - is it metric? Can you show us the ends of the fork blades and rear stays where they join the dropouts? Are there any other braze-ons?
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Old 09-28-18, 02:22 PM
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I'd be looking towards Belgium in this case. Belgian builders not only used Ishiwata tubing and other Japanese frame parts (it's no coincidence that Shimano chose the Flandria team for their European launch in the seventies), but they produced fairly large quantities of decent to high quality frames as well.

The problem with identifying these is that many, if not most, were produced as "blank frames" for customers to brand with their own decals and serial numbers.

Many Belgian and Dutch bike shops used these frames for their house brands. Check out this thread for some nice examples (and perhaps a head badge match).

The shape of the head badge doesn't ring any bells with me. But just so you know: the biggest importer of Belgian frames in Holland was also the Campagnolo distributor, and apparently a good salesman. So it could have come from pretty much any LBS that sold racing bikes. And there were many of those ...

I'd like to see more pictures of this bike.
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Old 09-28-18, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cl904 View Post
Japan would be the first place Id start. Its more likely a Japanese company would use campy dropouts than a euro company using ishawata lugs or tubing. Not italian if it has a 68mm shell, or not very likely.
Case in point: BIANCHI made some with Ishiwata tubing, albeit on their Japanese models, as you say.
Italian company, with some Japanese production. I'm more concerned with the brand though.

Others, Moser, Martelly, Diamant - OMG so many others, made some models with "alternative" tubing.

Did ALL Italian bikes come with a 70mm shell? I'm not certain that would be the case.
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Old 09-28-18, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----
The "BM" is actually BCM for BOCAMA, the French maker of the lugs employed to construct the frame.
The use of Ishiwata combined with euro ends and lugs suggests we are in the Pays-Bas here.
@non-fixie and other experts on products BE and NL will be along shortly to assist...-----
2. I agree with you on the second point. The bike did come from the NL, but the previous owner does not know it's provenance... and people do import from other countries. A good trail to explore though, for sure.

1. However you err on the first point:
The lugs are straight out of the Ishiwata catalog.
I didn't picture them, but take my word for it: they are standard issue Ishiwata.
This was mentioned in the OP.
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Old 09-28-18, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Timmi View Post
2. I agree with you on the second point. The bike did come from the NL, but the previous owner does not know it's provenance... and people do import from other countries. A good trail to explore though, for sure.

1. However you err on the first point:
The lugs are straight out of the Ishiwata catalog.
I didn't picture them, but take my word for it: they are standard issue Ishiwata.
This was mentioned in the OP.
Someone's confused here. Perhaps it is me. How did lugs made by Ishiwata end up with a Bocama logo on them?
Bocama lugs BCM catalog -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/90286293@N06/28234508260

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Old 09-28-18, 03:05 PM
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We need more photos from different angles of these lugs. And while Ishiwata may have made lugs, though I have never seen any, the top head lug in the photo is a Bocama. I've seen that logo on more lugs than I care to count, on Gitanes and Raleighs and Merciers and Liberias and Allegros and even the odd Peugeot PA-10. Again, go look at the catalog. That noted, the only thing that says Ishiwata here is the statement that these lugs are "straight out of the Ishiwata catalog." But they're not Ishiwata lugs.
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Old 09-28-18, 04:22 PM
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-----

Thanks so much for putting me right on the lugs @Timmi!

Next time I have occasion to check on the identity of one of these patterns I can go straight to the Ishiwata catalogue.

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Old 09-28-18, 05:14 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Cl904 View Post
japan would be the first place Id start. Its more likely a Japanese company would use campy dropouts than a euro company using ishawata lugs or tubing.

Not italian if it has a 68mm shell, or not very likely.
Correct. My 86 Japanese Bianchi had 022 tubes with Campy drops and chrome everywhere. If I'd painted it Celeste, the only 'tell' would be the bottom bracket.
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Old 09-28-18, 06:41 PM
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Hey OP, how about a few more photos? One shot of a head tube topped with a standard Bocama lug and sporting vintage glue residue just ain't cutting it. Sorry to be somewhat blunt, but c'mon and help us help you; post some pics of the tube joins, BB shell (top and bottom), fork crown, seatstay caps and fork/dropout transitions.

If anything is "limiting my thinking" it's the lack of info provided thus far.

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Old 09-28-18, 11:16 PM
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Is it my imagination or do I see the faint ghost of text along the top edge of the badge?
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Old 09-29-18, 12:23 AM
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Sorry guys! It's bocama!

Alright guys, my apologies. I searched for pictures of the Bocama logo, and this is indeed identical to it.
Either they had a stamp with a smaller radius, or more likely, the C was worn off, and they did not yet replace the stamp as they should have.
I was sure it was Ishiwata, because I had seen the identical lugs in an old Ishiwata catalogue. Fork crown looks like Ishiwata #501 , however, Bocama seems to have a similar model.

Let me add more pictures for you. However, I fear that it may distract more than help, because there are no proprietary markings. No builder engravings/stamp/etching/pantograph (pick your favourite word).









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Old 09-29-18, 07:44 AM
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-----

The "C" is located right where there is a weld/partingline.

When constructors dress this ridge they often remove/obscure the "C."



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Old 09-29-18, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
I'd be looking towards Belgium in this case. Belgian builders not only used Ishiwata tubing and other Japanese frame parts (it's no coincidence that Shimano chose the Flandria team for their European launch in the seventies), but they produced fairly large quantities of decent to high quality frames as well.
The problem with identifying these is that many, if not most, were produced as "blank frames" for customers to brand with their own decals and serial numbers.
Many Belgian and Dutch bike shops used these frames for their house brands. Check out this thread for some nice examples (and perhaps a head badge match).
The shape of the head badge doesn't ring any bells with me. But just so you know: the biggest importer of Belgian frames in Holland was also the Campagnolo distributor, and apparently a good salesman. So it could have come from pretty much any LBS that sold racing bikes. And there were many of those ...
I'd like to see more pictures of this bike.
Thank you for that lead.
It is very possible that it came from that region, because that is where it was imported from.
I would really like to give it a paint job that in all probability reflects it's (probable) builder, and give this to my daughter, who's outgrowing her smaller fixie.

As you suggested, I've posted under that other thread too.
And included an outline I made of what appears to be the original outline (the top part is unclear though - not much to trace there, so it's partly a best-guess).
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Old 09-29-18, 12:46 PM
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Your best clue to finding the builder is the "52" stamp on the fork crown. Never seen that before
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Old 09-29-18, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
Your best clue to finding the builder is the "52" stamp on the fork crown. Never seen that before
You believe that stamping the fame size under the bottom bracket shell and on the fork (because it would have the matching steerer length), is unique?
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Old 09-29-18, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Timmi View Post
You believe that stamping the fame size under the bottom bracket shell and on the fork (because it would have the matching steerer length), is unique?
You do realize you've made no reference to a 52 stamping on the bottom of the shell until now, correct?

Try to help somebody out...

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Old 09-30-18, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
You do realize you've made no reference to a 52 stamping on the bottom of the shell until now, correct?
By the looks of the headtube length, I though one could assume. it's 2 digits. What can it be?
(although I thought I had mentioned it - but it was in the other thread of the Belgian bikes - the omission was unintentional, without malice)

Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Try to help somebody out...
DD
About this "help"...
you're referring to your snarky remarks and condescending attitude, right?
Because that's all I've seen from you so far.
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Old 09-30-18, 12:59 AM
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OK, for anyone joining, here is what we know so far:

Ishiwata 022 tubing
Bocama Lugs
Fork crown is Ishiwata #501 (or similar model from Bocama).
Campagnolo Dropouts
There are no proprietary cutouts or markings (no pantograph/etchings/stampings), just the frame size 52 stamped under the BB shell and the fork.
It's probably from the 70s - see cable guides over the bottom bracket shell, and also the Ishiwata sticker looks about that age.
The shape of the HeadBadge outline probably holds the most definitive clue.
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Old 09-30-18, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Timmi View Post
You believe that stamping the fame size under the bottom bracket shell and on the fork (because it would have the matching steerer length), is unique?
It is not uncommon to find forks with serial numbers or other markings on the steerer - out of sight - to match it to the frame. Stamping numbers on the fork crown in plain sight is unusual, IME. I recall seeing it only once, on this Jonkers (which could have a Belgian origin as well, BTW):

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Old 09-30-18, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Timmi View Post
About this "help"...
you're referring to your snarky remarks and condescending attitude, right?
Because that's all I've seen from you so far.
I was referring to your similarly-snarky responses to others in their attempts to help. And maybe doing a little online personality-mirroring. Whatever. Good luck with the ID.

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Old 09-30-18, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
It is not uncommon to find forks with serial numbers or other markings on the steerer - out of sight - to match it to the frame. Stamping numbers on the fork crown in plain sight is unusual, IME. I recall seeing it only once, on this Jonkers (which could have a Belgian origin as well, BTW):
No, there's just those 2 digits, the frame size. Nothing else. A serial number would make things easier. But there is none on the bike anywhere.


Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
I was referring to your similarly-snarky responses to others in their attempts to help. And maybe doing a little online personality-mirroring. Whatever. Good luck with the ID.DD
You got what you wanted - more photos - the absence of which had you practically lose your mind - and I still don't see you contributing. So yeah, please let others help me.
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Old 09-30-18, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Timmi View Post
You got what you wanted - more photos - the absence of which had you practically lose your mind - and I still don't see you contributing. So yeah, please let others help me.
Hyperbole much? You ask for help, people offer help, you question their help citing your vast knowledge that ends up flawed so that you have to apologize and then immediately snark another contributor regarding the numbers on the exterior of the fork crown. I'm giving as good as I get.

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