Whats so special about Italian bikes?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 1,142
Bikes: 1983 Univega Super Strada, 1986 Panasonic DX5000, 1984 Fuji Team 85 Univega Gran Turismo, 1984 Lotus Unique, 1987 Centurion Expert, 1987 Centurion Ironman Master,
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 677 Post(s)
Liked 460 Times
in
182 Posts
Whats so special about Italian bikes?
If you look carefully you can buy a pristine vintage Japanese Miyata or Centurion for for $200-$300 dollars but yet I see these classic Italian bikes selling for thousands of dollars. Are they really that much better or is it a prestige deal having more to do with snob appeal owning a certain brand or something thats more of a collector item?
#2
señor miembro
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,627
Bikes: '70s - '80s Campagnolo
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3890 Post(s)
Liked 6,491 Times
in
3,213 Posts
Get the $300 Japanese bike and put Campy on it. Win-win.
#3
Veteran, Pacifist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,333
Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?
Mentioned: 284 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3900 Post(s)
Liked 4,843 Times
in
2,232 Posts
Point and shoot?, or digital SLR? They both take pictures.
__________________
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 1,142
Bikes: 1983 Univega Super Strada, 1986 Panasonic DX5000, 1984 Fuji Team 85 Univega Gran Turismo, 1984 Lotus Unique, 1987 Centurion Expert, 1987 Centurion Ironman Master,
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 677 Post(s)
Liked 460 Times
in
182 Posts
#5
Banned.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: PAZ
Posts: 12,294
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2588 Post(s)
Liked 4,824 Times
in
1,709 Posts
Oh, it's definitely snob appeal
DD
DD
#7
incazzare.
It seems like you are comparing apples and oranges. Compare 3 Rensho or similar to the high end, hand built Italian bikes, instead of Miyata and Centurion.
__________________
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1986 Schwinn High Sierra, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2011 Dick Chafe, 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 1,326
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 535 Post(s)
Liked 346 Times
in
196 Posts
I can’t really speak on the OP’s question as for my general lack of experience with enough bikes. I also can’t claim to understand what inspires or motivates others in a bike.
What I can say is that I have had a couple of upper mid-level Miyatas in double, and triple butted cro-mo. I’ve had a couple of upper mid-level Peugeot as well, in both Carbolite, and Vitus 181. Then there was the American made Trek with 501 Reynolds. Each was a great bike in its own right, and they all rode nicely.
I’ve also had one Italian bike that was unfortunately too small to qualify for review, though it’s craftsmanship was certainly attractively interesting. Benotto 3000.
But my American made frame custom built with Columbus SL is the finest riding bike of them all. I realize that has much to do with the builders, design, and skill. And yet I also believe the Italian steel might have something to do with it as well. All the reason I need to justify putting a Super Record group on it.
What I can say is that I have had a couple of upper mid-level Miyatas in double, and triple butted cro-mo. I’ve had a couple of upper mid-level Peugeot as well, in both Carbolite, and Vitus 181. Then there was the American made Trek with 501 Reynolds. Each was a great bike in its own right, and they all rode nicely.
I’ve also had one Italian bike that was unfortunately too small to qualify for review, though it’s craftsmanship was certainly attractively interesting. Benotto 3000.
But my American made frame custom built with Columbus SL is the finest riding bike of them all. I realize that has much to do with the builders, design, and skill. And yet I also believe the Italian steel might have something to do with it as well. All the reason I need to justify putting a Super Record group on it.
Last edited by deux jambes; 12-30-18 at 12:41 AM.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,489
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1641 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 831 Times
in
540 Posts
I can’t really speak on the OP’s question as for my general lack of experience with enough bikes. I also can’t claim to understand what inspires or motivates others in a bike.
What I can say is that I have had a couple of upper mid-level Miyatas in double, and triple butted cro-mo. I’ve had a couple of upper mid-level Peugeot as well, in both Carbolite, and Vitus 181. Then there was the American made Trek with 501 Reynolds. Each was a great bike in its own right, and they all rode nicely.
I’ve also had one Italian bike that was unfortunately too small to qualify for review, though it’s craftsmanship was certainly attractively interesting. Benotto 3000.
But my American made frame custom built with Columbus SL is the finest riding bike of them all. I realize that has much to do with the builders, design, and skill. And yet I also believe the Italian steel might have something to do with it as well. All the reason I need to justify putting a Super Record group on it.
What I can say is that I have had a couple of upper mid-level Miyatas in double, and triple butted cro-mo. I’ve had a couple of upper mid-level Peugeot as well, in both Carbolite, and Vitus 181. Then there was the American made Trek with 501 Reynolds. Each was a great bike in its own right, and they all rode nicely.
I’ve also had one Italian bike that was unfortunately too small to qualify for review, though it’s craftsmanship was certainly attractively interesting. Benotto 3000.
But my American made frame custom built with Columbus SL is the finest riding bike of them all. I realize that has much to do with the builders, design, and skill. And yet I also believe the Italian steel might have something to do with it as well. All the reason I need to justify putting a Super Record group on it.
The Davidson (Also built with Columbus SL) I just added to my stable is turning out to be the best riding bike I have, so far!
I cannot stop grinning when I ride it!
Likes For Chombi1:
#11
Senior Member
I asked a similar question a while back here it is.
How does an Ironman stack up?
How does an Ironman stack up?
#13
Full Member
I have a 1982 Miyata LeMans, stored carelessly, and a circa-1990 Cinelli Mens Sana, stored carefully. I love them both. I don't know how they were painted but the results are that the paintwork on the Miyata is excellent and that on the Cinelli is crap.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,489
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1641 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 831 Times
in
540 Posts
Comparing Italian bikes to say, French bikes is an apples to oranges comparison based on my experience with my French and Italian bikes.
My French bikes excel in climbs, because of their lightness and straight line fast motoring in the flats where their very stable and neutral handling makes them less exhausting to ride as the bikes basically go on auto pilot for you. Just super stable and quiet and smooth.
My Italian bikes on the other hand are super handlers. You almost just have to think to make them turn, very quick, but very secure. I have the highest confidence with the front ends of my Italian bikes, something that I don't have as much with the French bikes in my stable, maybe except for the Peugeot PY10FC, which seem to fall very close to the Italian bikes, in terms of handling. Riding French and Italian Vitus Carbone, back to back with my Alan Carbonio really gives me the opposite sides of the spectrum.
There was a time I almost swore off ever owning an Italian bike, but I think that was more because of the higher cost of owning and building up one than anything else, but when I finally did get my ALAN Carbonio,, about 5-6 years ago, I finally found out there is something different with Italian bikes. Not necessarily better than my French bikes, but just different in a lot of good ways, as I described above. Same thing was true with my Pinarello and Bottecchia that I acquired later.
These bikes are different I think, because different regions/counties have different "schools" of design that they follow, so the same ride qualities are carried over between builders and manufacturers from the same regions/countries.
My French bikes excel in climbs, because of their lightness and straight line fast motoring in the flats where their very stable and neutral handling makes them less exhausting to ride as the bikes basically go on auto pilot for you. Just super stable and quiet and smooth.
My Italian bikes on the other hand are super handlers. You almost just have to think to make them turn, very quick, but very secure. I have the highest confidence with the front ends of my Italian bikes, something that I don't have as much with the French bikes in my stable, maybe except for the Peugeot PY10FC, which seem to fall very close to the Italian bikes, in terms of handling. Riding French and Italian Vitus Carbone, back to back with my Alan Carbonio really gives me the opposite sides of the spectrum.
There was a time I almost swore off ever owning an Italian bike, but I think that was more because of the higher cost of owning and building up one than anything else, but when I finally did get my ALAN Carbonio,, about 5-6 years ago, I finally found out there is something different with Italian bikes. Not necessarily better than my French bikes, but just different in a lot of good ways, as I described above. Same thing was true with my Pinarello and Bottecchia that I acquired later.
These bikes are different I think, because different regions/counties have different "schools" of design that they follow, so the same ride qualities are carried over between builders and manufacturers from the same regions/countries.
__________________
72 Line Seeker
83 Davidson Signature
84 Peugeot PSV
84 Peugeot PY10FC
84 Gitane Tour de France.
85 Vitus Plus Carbone 7
86 ALAN Record Carbonio
86 Medici Aerodynamic (Project)
88 Pinarello Montello
89 Bottecchia Professional Chorus SL
95 Trek 5500 OCLV (Project)
72 Line Seeker
83 Davidson Signature
84 Peugeot PSV
84 Peugeot PY10FC
84 Gitane Tour de France.
85 Vitus Plus Carbone 7
86 ALAN Record Carbonio
86 Medici Aerodynamic (Project)
88 Pinarello Montello
89 Bottecchia Professional Chorus SL
95 Trek 5500 OCLV (Project)
#15
spondylitis.org
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fleetwood, PA, USA
Posts: 1,003
Bikes: '84 Colnago Super; '90 Bridgestone MB-1; '81 Trek 930; '01 Cinelli Supercorsa; '62 Ideor Asso; '87 Tommasini Super Prestige; '13 Lynskey R2300; '84 Serotta Nova Special; '94 Litespeed Catalyst; etc.
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Liked 97 Times
in
63 Posts
The thing I've never understood is why there's so much snob appeal for Campagnolo Nuovo Record and Super Record. Campy's parts may be durable and pretty, but the shift quality is HORRIBLE in comparison to Suntour Superbe/Cyclone/Sprint.
#17
What??? Only 2 wheels?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Posts: 13,434
Bikes: 72 Peugeot UO-8, 82 Peugeot TH8, 87 Bianchi Brava, 76? Masi Grand Criterium, 74 Motobecane Champion Team, 86 & 77 Gazelle champion mondial, 81? Grandis, 82? Tommasini, 83 Peugeot PF10
Mentioned: 189 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 645 Times
in
232 Posts
FWIW, the Campy NR derailleurs on my Masi look really nice. It is true the RD doesn't shift as well as a Cyclone but I have never lost a race because of it.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
jimmuller
#18
Hump, what hump?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC midlands
Posts: 1,934
Bikes: See signature
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times
in
145 Posts
What’s so special about a Stradivarius?
It’s just a wood box with strings.
That being said, my Ironman is a great all-day rider, even though it was mass-produced, like many Miyatas and other Japanese brands. Quality and value are separate items to consider, in bikes and other things.
It’s just a wood box with strings.
That being said, my Ironman is a great all-day rider, even though it was mass-produced, like many Miyatas and other Japanese brands. Quality and value are separate items to consider, in bikes and other things.
__________________
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
Last edited by horatio; 12-30-18 at 07:06 AM.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Merry Old England
Posts: 772
Bikes: Muddyfox Evolve 200, Bicycles4u Paris Explorer, Raleigh Twenty Stowaway, Bickerton California, Saracen Xile, Kona Hoss Deluxe, Vertigo Carnaby, Exodus Havoc, Kona Lanai, Revolution Cuillin Sport, Dawes Kingpin, Bickerton, NSU & Elswick Cosmopolitan
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times
in
25 Posts
I think statistically Italians don't spend a lot on bikes themselves so I guess it's an industry export driven. I've always thought of italian bikes as weak bikes. I seem to remember Campagnolo components having low weight limits and when an italian very lightweight steel frame was tested for strength it was very weak, the weakest frame on test. Also many modern Italian bikes are coming out of the same Asian factories as many other brands but their prices seem excessively high compared to many other brands importing the same frames. I wouldn't consider a new Italian bike today as they are a long way from reasonable value.
I couldn't help noticing while watching a youtube channel called 'two wheel cruise' that visited some Japanese cycle shops how Italian brand bikes are quite common as their high end choices. I guess they make more sense to the Japanese who like the heritage of Italian brands and will have no issues with their low weight limits.
I've ridden a few italian bikes in my time but never noticed anything particularly good or bad about them but I'm not a competitive cyclist who perhaps would notice those subtle differences and they weren't high end models. I remember when Raleigh stopped making their Raleigh Twenty model and started using a U folder design which was cheaper to make and copied the italian design and then later I think they imported italian frames they were complete rubbish compared to the Raleigh Twenty in ride quality, strength etc with only lower manufacturing costs really being the benefit.
I couldn't help noticing while watching a youtube channel called 'two wheel cruise' that visited some Japanese cycle shops how Italian brand bikes are quite common as their high end choices. I guess they make more sense to the Japanese who like the heritage of Italian brands and will have no issues with their low weight limits.
I've ridden a few italian bikes in my time but never noticed anything particularly good or bad about them but I'm not a competitive cyclist who perhaps would notice those subtle differences and they weren't high end models. I remember when Raleigh stopped making their Raleigh Twenty model and started using a U folder design which was cheaper to make and copied the italian design and then later I think they imported italian frames they were complete rubbish compared to the Raleigh Twenty in ride quality, strength etc with only lower manufacturing costs really being the benefit.
#21
Phyllo-buster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,847
Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic
Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked 2,055 Times
in
1,255 Posts
Why buy original art when a quality print or lithograph is nearly indistinguishable from a few yards away?
Many C&V'ers know and quote the names of the guys who built these frames in shops across Italy so what you're buying is a piece of history. I wouldn't call it snobbery to want to own handmade objects. We like authenticity and we want to be as close to the creator as possible. Cino Cinelli made a few hundred bikes a year while I suspect the nameless/faceless Miyata production line could easily pop out those out in a day or a week. It's not just Italian bikes . Venerable French, Belgian, English (European) marques all carry a premium. It's not about the bike.
Many C&V'ers know and quote the names of the guys who built these frames in shops across Italy so what you're buying is a piece of history. I wouldn't call it snobbery to want to own handmade objects. We like authenticity and we want to be as close to the creator as possible. Cino Cinelli made a few hundred bikes a year while I suspect the nameless/faceless Miyata production line could easily pop out those out in a day or a week. It's not just Italian bikes . Venerable French, Belgian, English (European) marques all carry a premium. It's not about the bike.
#22
Extraordinary Magnitude
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 13,649
Bikes: 1978 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT
Mentioned: 84 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2608 Post(s)
Liked 1,703 Times
in
937 Posts
Truth.
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,683
Bikes: too many sparkly Italians, some sweet Americans and a couple interesting Japanese
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 569 Post(s)
Liked 588 Times
in
411 Posts
Sorry, I can't help. Fortunately we all vary in what we hold in high regard, or the World would be a boring place. I can't nail down exactly what I think is special. Sense retiring I have gone through dozens of nice bikes and struggling to keep the fleet around 18. Some Italians have moved on, some my kids will have to dispose of when I am gone. There are 4 American customs, 2 built for me, a Trek and a Specialized, a Vitus 979, a Zurich, an Ironman Master, and Italians.
#24
Full Member
I couldn't help noticing while watching a youtube channel called 'two wheel cruise' that visited some Japanese cycle shops how Italian brand bikes are quite common as their high end choices. I guess they make more sense to the Japanese who like the heritage of Italian brands and will have no issues with their low weight limits.
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 1,268
Bikes: Bianchi Ti Megatube; Colnago Competition; Planet-X EC-130E; Klein Pulse; Amp Research B4; Litespeed Catalyst; Trek Y11
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 605 Post(s)
Liked 480 Times
in
260 Posts
If you look carefully you can buy a pristine vintage Japanese Miyata or Centurion for for $200-$300 dollars but yet I see these classic Italian bikes selling for thousands of dollars. Are they really that much better or is it a prestige deal having more to do with snob appeal owning a certain brand or something thats more of a collector item?
That doesn't mean lots of other bikes are less nice, or that all Italian bikes are nice just because they're Italian. But it's a good start, and hard to go too far wrong if that's your only criteria. Italian manufa's have been making nice bikes for a long time.
I don't think it is "snob appeal" to feel good when someone notices and compliments your nice bike, especially when you put a fair amount of effort into making it nice.