daviddavieboy

repechage

Road Fan

There's some history here. Campagnolo started as a company that made effective problem-solving for road racers, in the European pro peleton. They were durable, effective, and designed for the needs of professional racers. They did not begin with groups or derailleurs, or as bling. The best bikes reasonably widely available were road racing machines, made by Cinelli, Masi, Peugeot, and many others. The bikes came with Campy because it was what racers used, and because Campy provided attachment points to be built into the frames to accept and support their parts. Improvements were made over the years, but were backward-compatible in many cases. Many improvements were unsung or unannounced. The image was of quality and devotion to function and durability. It wasn't designed as bling. In those years, 1950s and 1960s, there was very little if anything imported from Japan, and the early imports were price leaders.

A truth in racing is that you do not win races that you do not finish. Trust of the professional race team management was key, to the early Campy. Racing, for example did not change to light weight Al cranksets from TA, Stronglight, or Campy overnight. Initially they were at least unproven, and in some cases prone to fracture compared to steel cotterred cranksets like FB and Magistroni, just to look at Italy. The Campy Record had to prove itself. The Record derailleur did not spring forth in aluminum, it was steel, then Nuovo Record was aluminum. They were not designed to shift 7 cogs spanning 12 to 32, they needed to cover 14 to 24 5 speed. They did that better than anyone else up until perhaps the late 1960s. Simplex came up with some better-shifting derailleur designs, but not very durable, and they were the newcomer.

I don't know the history of the Japanese brands so well, but I didn't see them on bikes in my local shops in top-line frames much before 1975 to 1980. They were price leaders, not performance leaders. Campagnolo slowly began to compete, with some good results and some not so good. And the Asian companies raised their game as time went on.

All I can say, is that Campagnolo NR and SR were designed to fit the top markets of the day and satisfied in that task. The needs changed, and others came it. Many today do not understand that NR and SR should not be compared to the indexing performance of modern groups. The were not designed for it and are not suited for it. But they were the best solution to the market they did have.

Today they are nearly antiques and more scarce every year. Those of us who own and use old frames sometimes want to recreate the past. Other times we're happy to put modern parts on retro frames (see the retro-roadies thread). Prices today are largely based on the Internet, which means value is strictly subjective. It's not the fault of the current Campagnolo company that their 40 year old derailleur sells for 20 times what it did new. It's not even Ebay's fault.

Bottom lines: Understand some of the history.

Nobody is twisting your arm to buy Campy.

If you buy Campy and it doesn't work for you, maybe you are misapplying it, or maybe it has a flaw. But hey: it's 40 years old, and you can find good instructions if you look. On Youtube? Maybe not. But Campy did provide the knowledge required.

cb400bill

I loved how my mid 80's Super Record gruppo worked. It shifted and braked great. Maybe I was doing it wrong.


DSC01645 (2) by cb400bill, on Flickr

seypat

Physically beautiful bikes/components and the names just roll off the tongue. To be fair, same for French bikes or European bikes in general. It's all about the dialogue. Imagine the conversation at local coffee shop.

"I'm here on my Trek getting a cup of Joe. What about you?"
"My Barista is making me a double shot of Expresso. I'm riding a BEE-ONG-KEE. It has a full CAM-PAG-NOOW-LOOOOOO gruppo."
"What about that other bike?""That belongs to the guy getting the croissant and filling up his bidon.
"Bidon, you mean water bottle? What kind of bike is his?
"It is a POOJZ-JSHOW. It is equipped with a combo of Stronglight, Simplex, EUR-RAY and MA-VEEK."
"This Trek was handmade in Waterloo."
"Waterloo? Isn't that where Napoleon met his defeat? Could be bad karma. Can you do the bidon flip while riding the Trek?"
"Different Waterloo. I cannot do the bidon flip because I don't wear any Rapha. I do have a Breaking Away DVD, however."
"Bravo! Want to ride with us?"
"I think I am good solo, but thanks for the offer."

tkamd73 

Fahrenheit531 

Someday I'll be able to let you know. For now I'm gonna climb on my less-than-pristine $200 Panasonic-built Schwinn Volare and enjoy myself just fine.

(FWIW, translating my experience with guitars to bikes: They're really that much better.)

joesch

Why buy a German or Italian car?

sykerocker 

Get the $300 Japanese bike and put Shimano UIltegra or Dura Ace on it. Win-win-win. And have some money left over to buy another bike.

RobbieTunes

RobbieTunes

RobbieTunes

jamesdak 

Yep, gotta agree with you there. I was looking at this year's logs and realized that since I got the Davidson it's been used more than any of my bikes. It also owns two of my three fastest paced rides of over 25 miles for the year. Not to mention how superb the craftmenship of the frame is.

sykerocker 

Feels good to be back in the discussions again.

jamesdak 

LOL, total cop out!

ramzilla

I think it's all about Columbus Tubing frames. The only thing that Japan had that came close were Tange 1 frames. And, few mass produced bikes were ever made with it until the late 80's. Every Italian bike I ever rode always had Columbus Tubing frames. Only one in ten Japanese bikes I've ever rode had Tange 1 frames.

horatio 

jamesdak 

Wildwood 

Not sure if this answers the question about 'Italians Better?', but if someone says:

"I have a nice Italian frame for you" …. it carries a higher expectation than....

"I have a nice _________ (Chinese, Indian, Trek, Spesh, English, Japanese) frame for you.

BUT, as with most questions, the answer is usually = It Depends.
What makes a bike ride 'special'? IDK!?!
Exceptional tires and wheels can usually make any nice frame ride significantly above frame material.

But to be blunt, if you want a racy feeling bike - higher end Columbus tubes with appropriate geometry and lotsa chrome, sporting hand sewn Italian tubulars always ooooozzzzes SPECIAL.

3alarmer 

...*sigh*

Aubergine 

robertj298 

My question exactly. You can get a Japanese car with equal performance,10 times more reliable and more economical to buy and maintain.

daviddavieboy

As far as I can remember the nuovo record always had to over shift and the back to get the gear right, not that is a bad thing it is just they way they are. Possibly the shifters but I don't know I use campy shifters on them as well.

crank_addict

This one really makes me smile! Wisconsin outfit that poured everything they knew into making a fine, fine racer.... regardless where they sourced tubing or components. Make the best. Done.

Choke 

I don't really know how to explain what it is about Italian bikes that I like....I just know that I like them. I guess the best way is to say that they are the epitome of what a racing bike should be in my view. I have a custom frame from a US builder and a couple of non-Italians - all of which are very nice bikes - but there's just some intangible extra to Italian frames IMO.