Whats so special about Italian bikes?
12-30-18, 03:25 PM
#76
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
My current rain bike is from China...I don’t know why anyone would want a Rene herse when I like my Diverge
12-30-18, 03:38 PM
#77
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6,480
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1361 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 424 Times
in
283 Posts
I hate these threads.
Bikes from a country aren’t all the same because they’re from a country. Bikes and brands are different in different eras. This question is meaningless, and insulting, intentional or not, to those of us who do like many Italian brands.
In short, most of these Japanese bikes are imitations of Italian designs. Often they’re well made, and typically larger production runs. Typically they’re budget alternatives. Comparisons of this country vs. this country are utterly meaningless, and quite silly.
A 200-300 Miyata/Centurion is rarely a racing machine, like the Italians you’re comparing them to. They are slacker geometry, usually more versatile, and likely more practical for many riders - but they are not the precision, agile racing machines a De Rosa is known as.
You can find top end Italian bikes from lesser known builders for far under 1k if you know what you’re doing.
No other bike, Japanese or Italian, rides as well for me as my Marnati.
It’s great that you like your 200-300 miyata...I’ve liked many myself. Why do you have to justify your bike by comparing them to something else?
Bikes from a country aren’t all the same because they’re from a country. Bikes and brands are different in different eras. This question is meaningless, and insulting, intentional or not, to those of us who do like many Italian brands.
In short, most of these Japanese bikes are imitations of Italian designs. Often they’re well made, and typically larger production runs. Typically they’re budget alternatives. Comparisons of this country vs. this country are utterly meaningless, and quite silly.
A 200-300 Miyata/Centurion is rarely a racing machine, like the Italians you’re comparing them to. They are slacker geometry, usually more versatile, and likely more practical for many riders - but they are not the precision, agile racing machines a De Rosa is known as.
You can find top end Italian bikes from lesser known builders for far under 1k if you know what you’re doing.
No other bike, Japanese or Italian, rides as well for me as my Marnati.
It’s great that you like your 200-300 miyata...I’ve liked many myself. Why do you have to justify your bike by comparing them to something else?
Comparing makes and country of origin is good. It tells a story, perhaps of economics, skill and capabilities, etc..
As I mentioned earlier and such things as the mighty USA that CAN'T produce and competively market a shift group. But sure they can SOURCE foreign tubing and massage into beautiful frames, but that's only limited to boutique makers.
Schwinn and Trek slipped away, both formerly making in the USA super R531 tubed framesets, in decent production numbers. I finally have each example from those two companies and cherish the thought. 1973 Paramount and 1984 760.
12-30-18, 03:42 PM
#78
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times
in
336 Posts
Why buy original art when a quality print or lithograph is nearly indistinguishable from a few yards away?
Many C&V'ers know and quote the names of the guys who built these frames in shops across Italy so what you're buying is a piece of history. I wouldn't call it snobbery to want to own handmade objects. We like authenticity and we want to be as close to the creator as possible. Cino Cinelli made a few hundred bikes a year while I suspect the nameless/faceless Miyata production line could easily pop out those out in a day or a week. It's not just Italian bikes . Venerable French, Belgian, English (European) marques all carry a premium. It's not about the bike.
Many C&V'ers know and quote the names of the guys who built these frames in shops across Italy so what you're buying is a piece of history. I wouldn't call it snobbery to want to own handmade objects. We like authenticity and we want to be as close to the creator as possible. Cino Cinelli made a few hundred bikes a year while I suspect the nameless/faceless Miyata production line could easily pop out those out in a day or a week. It's not just Italian bikes . Venerable French, Belgian, English (European) marques all carry a premium. It's not about the bike.
Not to mention the many boom factories in Europe at the time pumping out mass production.
So it can't be a "European vs. Japanese" distinction, as there are handmade shops and factories everywhere.
12-30-18, 03:49 PM
#79
Hump, what hump?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC midlands
Posts: 1,934
Bikes: See signature
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times
in
145 Posts
This explanation would make sense if there weren't also many old Japanese framebuilders making small amounts of custom frames by hand with masterful style and craft. Toei, Toyo, Cherubim, Alps, Amanda, the list goes on. Many started in the late 60s and 70s.
Not to mention the many boom factories in Europe at the time pumping out mass production.
So it can't be a "European vs. Japanese" distinction, as there are handmade shops and factories everywhere.
Not to mention the many boom factories in Europe at the time pumping out mass production.
So it can't be a "European vs. Japanese" distinction, as there are handmade shops and factories everywhere.
__________________
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
12-30-18, 03:49 PM
#80
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
This explanation would make sense if there weren't also many old Japanese framebuilders making small amounts of custom frames by hand with masterful style and craft. Toei, Toyo, Cherubim, Alps, Amanda, the list goes on. Many started in the late 60s and 70s.
Not to mention the many boom factories in Europe at the time pumping out mass production.
So it can't be a "European vs. Japanese" distinction, as there are handmade shops and factories everywhere.
Not to mention the many boom factories in Europe at the time pumping out mass production.
So it can't be a "European vs. Japanese" distinction, as there are handmade shops and factories everywhere.
Japanese bikes can be good as what they are without trying to make them what they’re not.
12-30-18, 03:52 PM
#81
Hump, what hump?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC midlands
Posts: 1,934
Bikes: See signature
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times
in
145 Posts
Now I want to buy a new bike. Thanks a lot!
__________________
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
12-30-18, 04:15 PM
#83
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times
in
336 Posts
Disagree, unless you mean keirin bikes. Japanese road bikes are imitations of euro road bikes...including the 3renshos. Most of them were designed by westerners and intended for export. Need a reminder on who Nagasawa learned under?
Japanese bikes can be good as what they are without trying to make them what they’re not.
Japanese bikes can be good as what they are without trying to make them what they’re not.
His quote: "Cino Cinelli made a few hundred bikes a year while I suspect the nameless/faceless Miyata production line could easily pop out those out in a day or a week."
12-30-18, 04:20 PM
#84
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
Not following what that has to do with the issue I had with @clubman's argument. He was saying the difference between Japanese and Italian is a difference of "handmade" vs. "mass production". Yet there were clearly both types of bikes being made in both Europe and Japan regardless of the origin of the style of bike.
His quote: "Cino Cinelli made a few hundred bikes a year while I suspect the nameless/faceless Miyata production line could easily pop out those out in a day or a week."
His quote: "Cino Cinelli made a few hundred bikes a year while I suspect the nameless/faceless Miyata production line could easily pop out those out in a day or a week."
12-30-18, 04:26 PM
#85
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Great White North
Posts: 926
Bikes: I have a few
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 210 Times
in
104 Posts
...you can remedy most of this by using die drawn stainless derailleur cables . . .And it still won't handle much in the way of a largest rear cog. I can only get them to work well with about 25 teeth or less. But it was never designed or intended for use with larger rear cogs.
Last edited by daviddavieboy; 12-30-18 at 04:33 PM. Reason: added pic
12-30-18, 04:30 PM
#86
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times
in
336 Posts
Yet many people have seen and ridden handmade Japanese frames. 3rensho, Toyo, and others made many of the first production high end frames for Specialized, Ritchey, and a few other American brands. They also have made thousands of custom bikes under their own brands over the decades. Many frames exported but their own branded frames tended to stay domestic in Japan. Just because they weren't exporting as much as the Italians doesn't mean they are irrelevant or "esoteric". Nor does it mean that there's actually something special about the high end Italian bikes compared to the high end Japanese ones, besides the cultural infatuation that men of a certain age have for them.
I would highly recommend taking a few minutes to look through the pictures from this bike shop in Japan called Shinkai Cycle. The man has a constant stream of NOS classic Japanese handmade bikes coming through, whether racing frames, randonneuring, even some early MTBs here and there. There are some amazing bikes. LINK
Last edited by TenGrainBread; 12-30-18 at 04:36 PM.
12-30-18, 04:39 PM
#88
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
Italian frames have been a symbol of wealth and status in the US over the decades and captured the attention of many C&Vers since youth. Hard to get that image of the shine coming off your dentist's Colnago out of your head - they call it a formative experience!
Yet many people have seen and ridden handmade Japanese frames. 3rensho, Toyo, and others made many of the first production high end frames for Specialized, Ritchey, and a few other American brands. They also have made thousands of custom bikes under their own brands over the decades. Many frames exported but their own branded frames tended to stay domestic in Japan. Just because they weren't exporting as much as the Italians doesn't mean they are irrelevant or "esoteric". Nor does it mean that there's actually something special about the high end Italian bikes compared to the high end Japanese ones, besides the cultural infatuation that men of a certain age have for them.
Yet many people have seen and ridden handmade Japanese frames. 3rensho, Toyo, and others made many of the first production high end frames for Specialized, Ritchey, and a few other American brands. They also have made thousands of custom bikes under their own brands over the decades. Many frames exported but their own branded frames tended to stay domestic in Japan. Just because they weren't exporting as much as the Italians doesn't mean they are irrelevant or "esoteric". Nor does it mean that there's actually something special about the high end Italian bikes compared to the high end Japanese ones, besides the cultural infatuation that men of a certain age have for them.
It doesn’t make them better riders, but there are real reasons for them being more desired by most.
12-30-18, 04:43 PM
#89
Hump, what hump?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC midlands
Posts: 1,934
Bikes: See signature
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times
in
145 Posts
Yet many people have seen and ridden handmade Japanese frames. 3rensho, Toyo, and others made many of the first production high end frames for Specialized, Ritchey, and a few other American brands. They also have made thousands of custom bikes under their own brands over the decades. Many frames exported but their own branded frames tended to stay domestic in Japan. Just because they weren't exporting as much as the Italians doesn't mean they are irrelevant or "esoteric". Nor does it mean that there's actually something special about the high end Italian bikes compared to the high end Japanese ones, besides the cultural infatuation that men of a certain age have for them.
I would highly recommend taking a few minutes to look through the pictures from this bike shop in Japan called Shinkai Cycle. The man has a constant stream of NOS classic Japanese handmade bikes coming through, whether racing frames, randonneuring, even some early MTBs here and there. There are some amazing bikes. LINK
I would highly recommend taking a few minutes to look through the pictures from this bike shop in Japan called Shinkai Cycle. The man has a constant stream of NOS classic Japanese handmade bikes coming through, whether racing frames, randonneuring, even some early MTBs here and there. There are some amazing bikes. LINK
I'd wager most American buyers, including yours truly, have little awareness of anything other than mass-produced Japanese bikes. I think it would be great to learn about lesser-known Japanese brands and their availability. Enlighten us.
I love my Ironman, BTW.
__________________
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
12-30-18, 04:48 PM
#91
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
It’s also true that many Japanese bikes offer remarkable value, others are extremely well made, and the sports tourer concept was likely the best bike for most people of its time.
12-30-18, 04:50 PM
#92
Hump, what hump?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC midlands
Posts: 1,934
Bikes: See signature
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 337 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times
in
145 Posts
My Nishiki was made in Taiwan.
__________________
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
2010 AB T1X ** 2010 Cannondale SIX-5 ** 1993 Cannondale RS900 ** 1988 Bottecchia Team Record ** 1989 Bianchi Brava ** 1988 Nishiki Olympic ** 1987 Centurion Ironman Expert(2) ** 1985 DeRosa Professional SLX ** 1982 Colnago Super ** 1982 Basso Gap ** 198? Ciocc Competition SL ** 19?? Roberts Audax ** 198? Brian Rourke ** 1982 Mercian Olympic ** 1970 Raleigh Professional MK I ** 1952 Raleigh Sports
12-30-18, 05:05 PM
#93
Senior Member
Show up to a group ride on anything but Italian and you spend a lot of time explaining how your bike compares to Italian. It is the basis of how everything else is judged.
I have Campagnolo and Suntour equipped bikes. If I want to get more serious about speed, I choose the Suntour equipped bikes. I do not have to worry about tightening the down tube shifters every 20 minutes and the brakes work better. My Campagnolo bikes look so pretty though.
Edit: I love all of my bikes. I do believe there is a perception that the bike worth more is the better bike. Not always true. It is just worth more. Riding a bike that is associated with a special team or builder can make one feel better than riding a bike that may be just as good but no history. Puts a bigger smile on the face. More pride in the ride.
The same can be said of those that do not make the investment. One can feel a sense of inferiority about their ride. Get a chip on their shoulder. Always dream about how much better that other bike must ride.
I have had quite a few bikes come through the door. I have discovered there are no real differences as long as you have good wheels and tires. Some just make you feel better about yourself.
I have Campagnolo and Suntour equipped bikes. If I want to get more serious about speed, I choose the Suntour equipped bikes. I do not have to worry about tightening the down tube shifters every 20 minutes and the brakes work better. My Campagnolo bikes look so pretty though.
Edit: I love all of my bikes. I do believe there is a perception that the bike worth more is the better bike. Not always true. It is just worth more. Riding a bike that is associated with a special team or builder can make one feel better than riding a bike that may be just as good but no history. Puts a bigger smile on the face. More pride in the ride.
The same can be said of those that do not make the investment. One can feel a sense of inferiority about their ride. Get a chip on their shoulder. Always dream about how much better that other bike must ride.
I have had quite a few bikes come through the door. I have discovered there are no real differences as long as you have good wheels and tires. Some just make you feel better about yourself.
__________________
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
Last edited by Steve Whitlatch; 12-30-18 at 06:13 PM.
12-30-18, 07:54 PM
#95
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,676
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super,Lemond Maillot Juane.& custom,PDG Paramount,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,
Mentioned: 156 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2326 Post(s)
Liked 4,993 Times
in
1,778 Posts
12-30-18, 07:59 PM
#96
Phyllo-buster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,847
Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic
Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2298 Post(s)
Liked 2,055 Times
in
1,255 Posts
Not following what that has to do with the issue I had with @clubman's argument. He was saying the difference between Japanese and Italian is a difference of "handmade" vs. "mass production". Yet there were clearly both types of bikes being made in both Europe and Japan regardless of the origin of the style of bike.
A Confente is really a high priced Italian and deserves it's rep and cost. Toeis, Toyo's etc are patterned after the classic french bikes that populated the Pacific rim from the 50's and the 60's. Do you remember the number of $1000 Simplex Juy derailleurs auctioned to Japanese collectors in the late 90's? That was crazy, they were buying tradition and heritage in the form of a mass produced derailleur.
My argument is scattered but please don't infer that I was saying the Italian bikes were just better, that makes no sense. But the combined, perceived value of craftsmanship, tradition, nostalgia and heritage, as 'soft' as these qualities may be, have real impact in the market. Once again, 'It's not about the bike'. In 20 years maybe that Centurion Ironman may fetch ridiculous prices but it's not likely with the sheer volume of bikes that were made.
Last edited by clubman; 12-30-18 at 08:27 PM.
12-30-18, 08:16 PM
#97
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Whittier
Posts: 873
Bikes: 1973 Colnago Super, Litespeed Classic , Automoto , Pinarello Gavia TSX,Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra,Eddy Merckx EMX-5 , 1982 Moser SL, Concorde TSX, Vitus 979 KAS. Diamant SLX,60's Meteor
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked 947 Times
in
327 Posts
It might have to do more with the 100 plus Years of Racing Heritage that alot of Italian Bikes carry with them. Bikes proven on the Stelvio Pass and L'Alpe Duez ridden by the Greats of Cycling. Riding the same bike that our heroes did carries alot of nostalgia from days gone past.
Japanese bikes (although great ) dont carry that Legacy of Tradition and probably never will.
Many many Years ago I purchased a brand new "Made in Japan" Schwinn Prologue with Tange Prestige Tubing and added Dura Ace parts. It was supposed to be my Crit bike and a thrasher. Ironically my Olmo And Masi stayed home while my Prologue soon became my Main and favorite bike.
Japanese bikes (although great ) dont carry that Legacy of Tradition and probably never will.
Many many Years ago I purchased a brand new "Made in Japan" Schwinn Prologue with Tange Prestige Tubing and added Dura Ace parts. It was supposed to be my Crit bike and a thrasher. Ironically my Olmo And Masi stayed home while my Prologue soon became my Main and favorite bike.
12-30-18, 09:54 PM
#98
Banned.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,199
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 1,410 Times
in
910 Posts
They're still Cinelli's, and Cino, then Andreas worked pretty hard to make them what they are.
Centurion and Lotus did not seek out Cinelli to make some frames because they simply thought they'd sell.
One Italian firm made absolutely no bones about trying to win: Pinarello. The father, and then the son, especially, continually sought to produce fast, winning bikes. Other than the choice of decal maker, they did a pretty good job, and are still doing so.
I like to think the Italian frame builder in the 80's was trying to make semi-art, and thinking of Maria and vino. He had a tradition to uphold, and the peer pressure and pride was the driving force. I like to think the Japanese frame builder in the 80's was trying to create an error-free frame of beauty and precision. He/she certainly knew of Ed Deming. I doubt the Italians knew or cared, based on the bikes, and the cars. Totally different approach.
I'm not aware of any Italian builders who were after the low-mid market, with high volume. Japanese frame builders were all about that. The chance to hand-craft frames was not given to many. You have to understand the corporate mind-set in Japan at the time, vs. the almost guild-like situation in Italy.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 12-30-18 at 10:04 PM.
12-30-18, 09:57 PM
#99
Disciple of St. Tullio
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 743
Bikes: Ciöcc, Bianchi, DeRosa, Eddy Merckx, Frejus, Hampsten, Kondor, Losa, Magni, Pegoretti, Pelizzoli, Pogliaghi, Scapin
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked 334 Times
in
140 Posts
I've used a NR RD with a 28T as well as a Zeus SR copy with a 30T and both shift more than well enough for me. I think the big key is to make sure that the wheel is all the way back in the dropout.
12-30-18, 10:09 PM
#100
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
They definitely were not, by the mid 80's, but a point well made.
They're still Cinelli's, and Cino, then Andreas worked pretty hard to make them what they are.
Centurion and Lotus did not seek out Cinelli to make some frames because they simply thought they'd sell.
One Italian firm made absolutely no bones about trying to win: Pinarello. The father, and then the son, especially, continually sought to produce fast, winning bikes. Other than the choice of decal maker, they did a pretty good job, and are still doing so.
I like to think the Italian frame builder in the 80's was trying to make semi-art, and thinking of Maria and vino. He had a tradition to uphold, and the peer pressure and pride was the driving force. I like to think the Japanese frame builder in the 80's was trying to create an error-free frame of beauty and precision.
He/she certainly knew of Ed Deming. I doubt the Italians knew or cared, based on the bikes, and the cars. Totally different approach.
I'm not aware of any Italian builders who were after the low-mid market, with high volume. Japanese frame builders were all about that.
They're still Cinelli's, and Cino, then Andreas worked pretty hard to make them what they are.
Centurion and Lotus did not seek out Cinelli to make some frames because they simply thought they'd sell.
One Italian firm made absolutely no bones about trying to win: Pinarello. The father, and then the son, especially, continually sought to produce fast, winning bikes. Other than the choice of decal maker, they did a pretty good job, and are still doing so.
I like to think the Italian frame builder in the 80's was trying to make semi-art, and thinking of Maria and vino. He had a tradition to uphold, and the peer pressure and pride was the driving force. I like to think the Japanese frame builder in the 80's was trying to create an error-free frame of beauty and precision.
He/she certainly knew of Ed Deming. I doubt the Italians knew or cared, based on the bikes, and the cars. Totally different approach.
I'm not aware of any Italian builders who were after the low-mid market, with high volume. Japanese frame builders were all about that.
I’d really like to learn more about early Pinarello - who made what. They really weren’t exported, or made in much bulk, before the late 70s.