How about some progress pictures ? Please .

here is the IM that was made for junior riders with the small front end . This one is kind of a hoot .

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/la...813139624.html

https://images.craigslist.org/00B0B_...iO_600x450.jpg

Factory trim

https://simplicityvintagecycles.file...e_scott_01.jpg

So far
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ed54e618c6.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...555587cd81.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7a9447d8d9.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...04752008a6.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c4a14c370d.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...deef471f67.jpg

Thanks [MENTION=494868]cdaniels[/MENTION] . Very nice ! Really glad to see black tires , those white tires do nothing for me . Black/Black/Black .

Love those DT shifters too .

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ed54e618c6.jpg

What length is the top tube?

12 parsecs, give or take, depending on gravitational wave variables.

That's nice. Really nice. Mine is a long way off, but there will be black.

I agree with [MENTION=20650]T-Mar[/MENTION], this Turbo "funny" bike is a model from the German Distributor.

Here is my reasoning.

Based on the serial number they are from 1988.

The decals match the 1988 decals of Centurion in Germany.

The serial numbers of these bicycles are from Yamaguchi of Japan. Yamaguchi was contracted to make frames for many brand names around the world.
I have not seen any Western States Imports (WSI) brand bicycle with a Yamaguchi serial number.

Another 1988 Centurion of Germany model was the Triathlon Expert and had a Yamaguchi serial number.
This model's tubing was also Tange Infinity double butted.
This model featured the 1987 USA model Ironman "Miami Vice" magenta (or fuchsia) and yellow paint scheme, but the German distributor's decals/logos.
(The German distributor appears to borrow things from the USA distributor.)
The one bicycle that I have seen pictures of had Suntour SVX components.

So, the German distributor appears to have been using Yamaguchi as a frame supplier in 1988.

I have seen four serial numbers for this Turbo model and all are from the same year and month of frame manufacture.
The sequence numbers of all four are in a range of 65 numbers.

If you assume that the serial number distribution is random, and it may not be a good assumption because of the small sample size, then what does this imply?

The 1988 Turbo was a one time manufacture of a limited series of frames?

German "distributor" means what, exactly? Purchased rights from WSI, or able to use the name and font, etc? I don't think anyone is disagreeing with Yamaguchi mfg, or the dates or the serial numbers, these are pretty much engraved in steel (vs. set in stone.)

I just wonder about the connection, if any, by way of the use of Centurion, Turbo, and the font/etc.

I have an Asian market Centurion Carbon-R, and the serial number denotes 1991, and it's nearly identical to the 1988 Ironman Carbon. For some reason, I consider it connected to WSI's Centurions. Perhaps I'm using the same logic with the '88 Turbo.

Of course, there is also the Centurion that is totally different. Is that a continuation of the German "distributor," with a complete change in font, etc?

Inquiring minds want to know. Maybe. :roflmao2:

Background. I used to run for a shoe company, basically just enough to get entries to some races, free gear, etc. I had a daily route that was about 10 miles, none of it marked, just felt like it. No GPS back then, couldn't drive it due to trails, etc. I looked at the clock radio, bolted out the door, looked at it again when I got back. My goal on easy days was 57:00 or so, average days 55:00 or so, and hard days 51-52:00. Didn't carry a watch and didn't know the splits. Did this for two years or so, and our group ran it every Sunday am as a group run, no one finished alone, as we finished, and ran back and got every single runner.

Enter an engineer into our running community. He measured the course, marked the miles, and came up with 9.92 miles. What I thought was the halfway mark was really about 7 miles in. He would call out splits, when we were just trying to hammer until our lungs exploded.

What I thought was 10 miles was really 9.92, and my 3800 and 3700 mile years were actually a bit less. I running journal said "10," and stayed that way, but that route was never the same for me again. He even changed it to get an even 10.

Killed the buzz.
Would I have run 14:37 instead of 14:39 in a 5K if I'd run those extra .08 miles every day? 29:33 in 10K instead of 29:36? And here's the killer, 2:19:59 in the marathon instead of 2:20:57? (sub 2:20:00 put you in the '88 Olympic Trials).

So, maybe I don't wanna know.
Maybe I do. I dunno.

I'll just build the damn bike. Says Centurion on the side in a font I recognize. Good enough. Still a cool bike.


Even with my buzz killed....

WSI only trademarked the name Centurion in the USA.

https://www.centurion.de/en/about-centurion-bikes/centurion-philosophy-125

Trademarks are governed individually by each nation. Anybody, if they wanted to, could trademark a Centurion bicycle brand in another country where it had not already been registered. When CBC bought WSI in late 1989, they discontinued the Centurion brand name in favour of Diamondback. CBC wanted to build a single, globally recognized brand, in the manner of Raleigh. They could have chosen Centurion but the number of different Centurion brand owners throughout the world made that impractical. One of reasons that they settled on Diamondback was the ease of acquiring trademarks throughout the world.

When a company registers a trademark, there is no obligation to an owner in another country. However, if they wanted to, they could go into partnership and pool resources. This would typically result in a license fee and/or royalties to the originator of the brand. However, local preferences often resulted in each owner designing unique models, as if often seen with the European Bianchi models and is even more pronounced with the Koga-Miyata, In the case of Bianchi, there were even significant difference between the Canadian and USA models in the 1980s. Speaking of Canada, Tano owned the Centurion trademark during the 1970s, though WSI did acquire it in the early 1980s. When it was not renewed in the very late 1990s, the German company, Centurion Kenner AG, registered it in Canada.

In the case of the German Centurion brand, it has been suggested that there was a relationship with WSI. Even so, there are notable differences in 1980s models, indicating that the German Centurion bicycles were being tailored to European tastes and that it was operated largely, if not totally, independent from WSI by the time of the subject bicycle. The German Centurion brand was being distributed throughout much of Europe, with the notable exception of the Scandanavian countries, whichhad a separate Danish owner. The source for the subject Turbo TT have been routinely reported as England, which were receiving their bicycles via the German Centurion company.

The Yamguchi sourcing has already been discussed by myself and Hummer. For me, all the evidence points to a model originating with the German Centurion company. and having little, if any, WSI involvement.

Buzz now beaten flat as a pancake.
Maybe I can expand it a little to few German Centurions.

Das Eisen der Mann has a good ring to it.

You're killing me. Combine flat as a pancake with where you live now. What do you get? This, of course. Dang!

Here are a few questions for the thread. We know that some of the IMs ridden by Centurion endorsers were built by Zunow using Prestige tubing. The bike leg, heck a whole triathlon is just a long TT. Is the weight savings between Tange Prestige and Tange 1 really that important in a TT? If so, then why are these TT Turbos made out of Tange Infinity? I thought Infinity was on the low end of Tange's range. Is it strictly a cost savings reason?

More to the point, how much weight difference between prestige and Tange 1?

Let's say it's 1/2 a pound, or maybe a pound. How important is that in a TT? Does aero cancel that out. Does the extra weight make for a more stable bike in windy conditions? A tri person is going to have a little more weight/muscle than a cyclist anyway. Maybe it doesn't matter much.

Both Tange #1 and Prestige had options, so the weight difference could vary from as low as 150g, up to 400g, depending on the combinations. Infinity achieved it's economics through it's seamed construction. In terms of wall, thickness, strength and weight, it was comparable to Tange #2 , so there's not a lot of weight penalty.

As to whether Prestige is a significant advantage over Tange #1 for a ITT, that all depends on the course. If there was a lot of climbing, I'd definitely want the lighter bicycle. On a flat course it's not nearly as important but then I l once lost a 90km ITT by one second and a lighter bicycle would almost certainly have given me the victory. Finally, there's the intangible psychological benefit afforded by knowing your bicycle is lighter than your competitor. All other things being equal, I'd wouldn't turn down a lighter bicycle.

I have that album. Head East was the very first concert I ever went to, at the University of Wisconsin-Platteville.
Opening for them, in burgundy tuxedos: Hamilton, Joe, Frank, and Dennison (in lieu of Reynolds).

I was 16, a whopping 93 lbs, and two "older" high school girls agreed to take us there. The only thing I remember is the drummer for Head East was drinking Coors on stage and he threw up, and "Don't Pull Your Love Out on Me, Baby" was the only song I recognized from Hamilton, Joe, Frank, and Dennison (in lieu of Reynolds). I was too young to understand the innuendo....

On a side note (pun intended), NC favorite son band Nantucket covered "Never Been A Reason" in concert for years, to the point where most who grew up in NC during that era actually thought it was a Nantucket song.

Likewise, the Nantucket song "Long Way to the Top" was covered by AC/DC, to the point where almost everyone thinks it's an AC/DC song. Nantucket opened for AC/DC, hence the connection. That's the word in NC. For all I know, it's the other way around. It's been said that AC/DC suggested Nantucket could really go places if they changed their manager, and Nantucket declined, remained loyal. They were a bunch of band kids, the kind you'd see walking home from the bus stop with the saxophone or trumpet case, and they still bring those instruments to gigs, and play them. Nice guys all, and they still play a lot of local concerts. The influence of NC/SC beach music on them is found on their Ride to Raleigh album.

If you order that album, one of the band members burns it on his PC at home, and mails it to you. A nicer bunch of guys is hard to find. Often, when playing smaller venues, they ask locals to sit in with them. On their rise upward, they often gave their used equipment to other local bands. Their commitment to benefit concerts is one of the things that keeps them in the hearts of many, many NC fans.

I just wanted a Prestige bike so I can treat [MENTION=208016]seypat[/MENTION] like a red-headed stepchild.

That answers my questions. Thank you. If you could, please explain what is meant by options.

Or a rented mule! No matter what tubing a bike is made out of, it will be in last place if I am riding it.

Did that opening band at the Head East concert make you feel like "falling in love?" If not, running around with the older girls probably did. Hard to beat an experience like that at that age.

BTW, have you gave a listen to texaspandj's band? That's some good stuff. In fact, you could say it is "Powerful Stuff." Definitely as good as Jimmy and Stevie Ray's stuff. Fairly tough, as well. Send him a PM so he can hook you up. I know he is a humble guy and is not going to promote it, but, but, someone needs to. I watched some of their videos on Youtube. We need to get the word out about that band. When they hit it big, we will expect backstage tickets, of course. We can also take credit for the discovery. :D

Some of tubes had multiple versions/options available. For instance, you could select from three different Prestige seat tubes. There was a triple butted (1.0-0.8-0.6), double butted (0.7-0.4-0.7) and single butted (0.9-0.6) seat tube available. The difference between the lightest and heaviest seat tube was 65g. Similarly, there were different options of chain stays, seat stays and fork blades with different combinations of thickness, shape and size. This allowed the frame builder some leeway in tailoring the frame's characteristics while still maintaining a full Prestige frame. Depending on the combination of tubes that you ordered, the weight of a Prestige tubeset could vary by almost 10%.

Thanks again. I did not know that. Today has certainly been a learning day so far.

Pass. He has a wife 20 years his junior, so I've got enough resentment already....:innocent:

I've seen you in action. You had that Tri-girl eating out of your hand. Then she went all the way to Wisconson to ride with you again! Of course, it could be because you were riding an IM.

The more I look at these swoopy frames, the more I'm convinced they need to be turned into the bicycle equivalent of Big Daddy Roth's Rat Fink hot rods.

The heck with recreating an '80s style TT bike. I wanna see one with an albatross bar, or ape hangers.

Y'know what that rear eyelet was supposed to be for? Rear support for a banana seat with sissy bar.

Don't dare me. I'll do it. I'm getting old enough I can start to blame dementia for the consequences.

^^^^ Requred - "neuter-maker" shifter from an old Krate, or a contemporary Raleigh competitor, better yet.

Brake in the action here for a minute guys , what is the YouTube vid name for texaspandj's band ? OK back to the regular stuff .

Never mind , I found it . Rock on Tony .