Cyclist0108

I was riding my Bianchi today. It has Gipiemme dropouts that look like this:




As I was standing and hammering up a hill in what was probably a too-high gear, my wheel moved in the dropout. I have closed-cam Crampy quick-releases. I guess I just didn't have it on tight enough.

In any case, the wheel immediately locked on the frame, and down I went. Fortunately, due to my overall suckiness, I was going about Garmin-pause speed, so nothing bruised except my ego, and maybe my knee and hip. (It was my first significant fall since breaking my ankle 5 years ago, so I was pleasantly surprised by the outcome).

Was this dropout (from 1986 in my case) a design flaw?

I looked on my 2014 steel bike and the dropouts for the rear wheel go down, not forward, so presumably the risk of the wheel moving in the frame is substantially less.

cudak888 

Check your axles. Do they poke out past the dropout? If so, your quick release might have been bottoming out more on the axle than biting the dropout. Could have been a simple case of needing to tighten the Q/R more too.

I wouldn't say horizontal dropouts are at fault for this. Vertical dropouts - as on modern bikes today - often have a slight angle to them as well which could aid a wheel coming out, if a Q/R wasn't biting. Even if it was straight down, one could get a wheel to pop out of one with a slightly-loose QR.

-Kurt

friendofpugs

I've had that happen to me a few times (though always from a start so I haven't crashed, thank goodness) and it's a real confidence killer, for sure. Sometimes I don't stand up and pedal for fear of wrenching the wheel out again.

HTupolev

Horizontal dropouts can be prone to wheel slippage, but they usually work fine.

Is there smooth paint or chrome on the clamp surfaces of the dropout? Sometimes that needs to be roughed up before the wheel clamping works properly.

jetboy 

quick release can only get so tight: get some
and then you can get it nice and snug.

Bandera

Check your dropouts with the proper alignment tool to make sure that they are parallel.
Use classic Internal Cam QR skewers from Campag or Shimano properly tensioned not the "modern" external cam designs which lack the compression needed for horizontal dropouts: Done.



-Bandera

bikemig 

+ 1 on this. Get a real quick release. People raced on bikes with these drop outs for a long time . . .

Cyclist0108

It is chrome, but it is the first time this happened since 1986. I just took the bike out of my trainer, so it is possible I somehow loosened the QR a little bit when I did that.

Cyclist0108

It is the Tullio-designed Crampy internal cam skewer that I got with the bike in 1986.


Edit:

It turns out is a Shimano look-alike that I think came with a replacement 105 wheel I got ca. 1995. But functionally, I think it is nearly identical and is internal cam.

Cyclist0108

I am.

bikemig 

Yep with a chrome drop out, it can be tough to get them tight enough but yeah the internal cam skewer should do the job.

Bad Lag

Why is it a design flaw if you did not have the QR tight enough???

The next thing you know, he'll be asking for a positive retention device on every axle attachment point.

Bandera

If your machine in this config has never had this problem in the previous 33 years the hardware is not likely to suddenly be suspect.
Something has changed, most likely moving from the trainer to the road.
Re-set QR tension F&R and proceed like it was 1986.

-Bandera

Cyclist0108

Same reason a fork with dropouts facing down and back with disc brakes is a design flaw.

Is there any reason the drop-out should be horizontal?

The QR was by no means loose. I had to pry the thing open while lying in a pool of blood in the middle of an interstate highway.

cudak888 

Well, then you might prefer bikes from the turn of the century. Some of them had holes for axles, not dropouts.

-Kurt

Cyclist0108

Well, I got new wheels with a 130mm White Industry Hub, and had the frame cold-set (by someone competent) from its original 126mm-compatible geometry about 3 years ago, so I have made some hardware changes...

Cyclist0108

Which century? Sounds like through-axles.

cudak888 

19th. Though I could weld some washers onto the dropouts of 1990 Specialized if you'd prefer the 20th

-Kurt

Bandera

So you are using the 126 "Tullio-designed Crampy internal cam skewer that I got with the bike in 1986" QR w/ a 130 WI hub?

-Bandera

Cyclist0108

Yup.

Is that bad?

I mean, functionally?

I modernized the bike with an Athena 11 speed triple groupset, and had to get new wheels.

Bandera

To answer the title question:
"Are vintage dropouts a design flaw or hazard?"

No, they were/are not.

-Bandera

Bandera

Dunno, never did try a 126 QR on 130 spacing, or would be inclined to do so.
If I had a new 130 wheel to install on a re-spaced horizontal dropout frame-set I'd go with a new Shimano 130 spec internal cam QR with great confidence that all would stay put.

-Bandera

Cyclist0108

@Bandera

I've got Shimano Dura Ace internal cams on my 2014 bike. I guess I could always try that. Those things don't budge.

The headset and the quick releases are about the only thing that remains from the original build.
...

Bandera

No, they do not: Silly old heavy/obsolete design.

-Bandera

Darth Lefty