Find of a lifetime?!?! I could REALLY use help from the experts
05-08-21, 09:37 AM
#76
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05-08-21, 10:09 AM
#77
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Finding a wheel that is true enough to show up a 1mm discrepancy whilst sitting in a near hundred year old horizontal dropout strikes me as a can of worms. I would have thought a straight edge across the bottom of the dropouts and the BB shell would tell you how true the frame was. Gently hold it against a glass door and see if there is a gap under the bent seat stay dropout, maybe two spirit levels/straight edges. A lathe bed would be better but not as common-place.
I have always assumed the straightness of mild steel connecting the top of the seat tube to the rear axle was critical to the seat staying where it was. So if you bend the seat stay to correct wheel alignment, do you then bend the chain stay as well?
Every days a school day.
I have always assumed the straightness of mild steel connecting the top of the seat tube to the rear axle was critical to the seat staying where it was. So if you bend the seat stay to correct wheel alignment, do you then bend the chain stay as well?
Every days a school day.
I'm kinda sorry I brought up the topic now, because I agree it's very likely that a frame as old as this Schwinn has had plenty off opportunity to get bent accidentally. I don't have any pictures of how I fixed this Zeus to center the rear wheel in the vertical plane. But no, it's no trouble at all putting a perfectly trued and dished rear wheel in there and looking at where the rim/tyre run between the seat stays. Nor is it much effort to correct the problem, if you are careful in your efforts.
So while it is true that accidental damage is the most likely case, I'm not sure why it is so offensive to suggest that before you do anything in terms of frame alignment, you put the wheels in the frame/fork and see where they sit with regard to the vertical plane. This is, after all, the essential principle in cold bending to align a steel frame anyway. The reason we do it in the first place is to put the places where the wheel clamps into the frame and fork to allow fixing the front and rear wheel in a position where they are as close as possible to alignment with the frame's vertical plane. Because many old bicycle frames were cut, milled, and brazed together by hand, there are some variables inherent in the process. Cold bending for further alignment simply allows for slight corrections in that product.
In essence, I have simply stated, " Check what's really going on before you start bending and straightening stuff. It's not that hard, and it only takes a few minutes."
In this case of the Zeus Competition the slots in the (front facing) horizontal dropouts are misaligned as well, so there is one spot where they kind of cross each other. The wheel goes close enough to centered on the brake bridge at that point to make me satisfied. Had that spot not shown itself after some checking and fiddling, my next step would have been to tweak the stay slightly on the longer side (so working upside down, that would be the higher one). Or, I might have just started filing. I don't know, because I found a fix pretty early in the process. I found it by inserting a rear wheel and figuring out what was happening....which was puzzling enough at the time.
I really hate this aspect of this forum, where perfectly reasonable suggestions, based on experience, are rejected out of hand based on either speculation or some other, different experience.
It's not unreasonable to insert the wheels and see where they are sitting/running before you start bending stuff to fix it on a bike frame. It is, in fact, the preferred place to start, if you want and expect a good end result. But in this case, please just forget I chimed in at all. I should know better by now. Take care. I'm out.
05-08-21, 12:04 PM
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...here is the only bicycle I have ever personally owned that has a frame originally constructed with the rear dropouts misaligned in the horizontal plane. I've repaired several with that problem in the fork
I'm kinda sorry I brought up the topic now, because I agree it's very likely that a frame as old as this Schwinn has had plenty off opportunity to get bent accidentally. I don't have any pictures of how I fixed this Zeus to center the rear wheel in the vertical plane. But no, it's no trouble at all putting a perfectly trued and dished rear wheel in there and looking at where the rim/tyre run between the seat stays. Nor is it much effort to correct the problem, if you are careful in your efforts.
So while it is true that accidental damage is the most likely case, I'm not sure why it is so offensive to suggest that before you do anything in terms of frame alignment, you put the wheels in the frame/fork and see where they sit with regard to the vertical plane. This is, after all, the essential principle in cold bending to align a steel frame anyway. The reason we do it in the first place is to put the places where the wheel clamps into the frame and fork to allow fixing the front and rear wheel in a position where they are as close as possible to alignment with the frame's vertical plane. Because many old bicycle frames were cut, milled, and brazed together by hand, there are some variables inherent in the process. Cold bending for further alignment simply allows for slight corrections in that product.
In essence, I have simply stated, " Check what's really going on before you start bending and straightening stuff. It's not that hard, and it only takes a few minutes."
In this case of the Zeus Competition the slots in the (front facing) horizontal dropouts are misaligned as well, so there is one spot where they kind of cross each other. The wheel goes close enough to centered on the brake bridge at that point to make me satisfied. Had that spot not shown itself after some checking and fiddling, my next step would have been to tweak the stay slightly on the longer side (so working upside down, that would be the higher one). Or, I might have just started filing. I don't know, because I found a fix pretty early in the process. I found it by inserting a rear wheel and figuring out what was happening....which was puzzling enough at the time.
I really hate this aspect of this forum, where perfectly reasonable suggestions, based on experience, are rejected out of hand based on either speculation or some other, different experience.
It's not unreasonable to insert the wheels and see where they are sitting/running before you start bending stuff to fix it on a bike frame. It is, in fact, the preferred place to start, if you want and expect a good end result. But in this case, please just forget I chimed in at all. I should know better by now. Take care. I'm out.
I'm kinda sorry I brought up the topic now, because I agree it's very likely that a frame as old as this Schwinn has had plenty off opportunity to get bent accidentally. I don't have any pictures of how I fixed this Zeus to center the rear wheel in the vertical plane. But no, it's no trouble at all putting a perfectly trued and dished rear wheel in there and looking at where the rim/tyre run between the seat stays. Nor is it much effort to correct the problem, if you are careful in your efforts.
So while it is true that accidental damage is the most likely case, I'm not sure why it is so offensive to suggest that before you do anything in terms of frame alignment, you put the wheels in the frame/fork and see where they sit with regard to the vertical plane. This is, after all, the essential principle in cold bending to align a steel frame anyway. The reason we do it in the first place is to put the places where the wheel clamps into the frame and fork to allow fixing the front and rear wheel in a position where they are as close as possible to alignment with the frame's vertical plane. Because many old bicycle frames were cut, milled, and brazed together by hand, there are some variables inherent in the process. Cold bending for further alignment simply allows for slight corrections in that product.
In essence, I have simply stated, " Check what's really going on before you start bending and straightening stuff. It's not that hard, and it only takes a few minutes."
In this case of the Zeus Competition the slots in the (front facing) horizontal dropouts are misaligned as well, so there is one spot where they kind of cross each other. The wheel goes close enough to centered on the brake bridge at that point to make me satisfied. Had that spot not shown itself after some checking and fiddling, my next step would have been to tweak the stay slightly on the longer side (so working upside down, that would be the higher one). Or, I might have just started filing. I don't know, because I found a fix pretty early in the process. I found it by inserting a rear wheel and figuring out what was happening....which was puzzling enough at the time.
I really hate this aspect of this forum, where perfectly reasonable suggestions, based on experience, are rejected out of hand based on either speculation or some other, different experience.
It's not unreasonable to insert the wheels and see where they are sitting/running before you start bending stuff to fix it on a bike frame. It is, in fact, the preferred place to start, if you want and expect a good end result. But in this case, please just forget I chimed in at all. I should know better by now. Take care. I'm out.
I have a thing about orange bikes. That Zeus is a beauty.
Last edited by Johno59; 05-08-21 at 12:08 PM.
05-08-21, 12:30 PM
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05-08-21, 02:16 PM
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Hey c'mon. You offered an alternative solution. I can see exactly where you are coming from. Stuck with a irreversible fault you have to adapt. I've bent lots of things to solve a seemingly unsolvable problems. Bending dropouts is a perfect example of correcting a beforehand impossible gear changing problem. Stripped bottom brackets in bikes that are written off are another rich source of alternative solutions. Who's to say a seat stay straightened on this unit will put things out of whack. I for one appreciate your lateral thinking.
I have a thing about orange bikes. That Zeus is a beauty.
I have a thing about orange bikes. That Zeus is a beauty.
But you misunderstand me. I'm not offering an alternative solution, I'm suggesting a way of working. Where you carefully consider the possibilities before you are overcome by the natural human desire to start bending stuff to make it "straight". And one where you measure and assess what's currently going on in a frame, before you start "correcting" things that might be a certain way for a reason you have not anticipated.
It's not a big deal, they really are only bicycles. But it is when I start on a project without due consideration and reflection of the options, I can almost guarantee that it will not go well.
On the Zeus, one of the arguments against using a file is that the dropouts are a nice feature of the bike, chromed, and with long, horizontal slots. So where exactly do you file in there ? Or is there a better way ?
05-08-21, 02:23 PM
#81
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I have always assumed the straightness of mild steel connecting the top of the seat tube to the rear axle was critical to the seat staying where it was.
https://www.sevencycles.com/options/seat-stays.php
05-08-21, 02:29 PM
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