I'm selling this beautiful Cinelli Speciale Corsa for a long term vintage bike collector. He's not sure of the frame date but thought it was about 1972. The frame SN is 2485. Perhaps the Cinelli experts here can help me nail down the year combining the SN with the lug design and other features. It was repainted and restored by Joe Bell and has the full 1983 Campagnolo 50th Anniversary Super Record gruppo.

Thank you for any assistance. Constructive suggestions are also welcome.

P.S. If you're interested in buying it, let me know. I just upgraded my membership and will try to post it in the for sale section.

With the fender eyelets and holes in fork tang, if the socket seat binder bolt is original, 1972 seems about right.

Wow.
That’s stunning.

Thank you, The binder bolt is part of the Campag 50th Anniversary collection so isn't useful for dating the frame..

Thanks for commenting, It's more stunning in person. Everything is mint except the front tubular. The collector owner is going to put a new set of tubulars on the bike as soon as he decides which ones he wants, Skin walls are getting scarce.

This collector has other bikes that are similarly mint. I'm building out a Schwinn Paramount short couple painted by Brian Baylis, changing some of the parts on a beautiful Hetchins with near perfect original paint and pretty much restoring an 80s Cinelli Super Corsa also painted by Brian Baylis but not well cared for by the second owner,

False on the seat binder bolt. Period.
the seat binder may be original, maybe not.
does not match my 1971 SC
but hey, when these were new, period correct was not a term.

I am uneasy with the subterfuge offer to sell also. As you are breaking the rules, I will too.
Nice $5,000 bike there.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about the seat binder bolt being false. Are you saying that the Campag 50th anv collection does not include a seat binder bolt or that the binder bolt on the bike above is not the bolt that comes with the collection. If you're saying that the collection did not include a seat binder bolt, please find a photo of a collection case. The binder bolt is located on the upper half between the seat post and the RD. If you're saying that the binder bolt on the bike isn't a 50th Anv, one, what causes you to believe that?

Regarding what you believe is a subterfufuge offer to sell, I mention in my original post that I just upgraded to a paid subscription and will be posting it in the for sale section of the market place. There was no need for deception as you apparently deemed my post to be. The bike is already listed for sale elsewhere and I want to see if I can definitively date the frame.

If the rules prohibit me from mentioning that I will be listing it for sale on this forum, I'm sorry that I was unaware and ask for grace. I don't post that often. I haven't listed it in the marketplace yet because I have a lot of photos and am trying to decide how best to post them without taking too much bandwidth. I'll probably load them into Google Drive and post the link.

Lastly, thank you for the compliment i=of it being a nice bike and your appraisal of $5,000. May I ask how you determined that to be the value?

Thank you.

Cinelli frames of this era cannot accept a Campagnolo seat binder bolt, the opening is not big enough and too wide. Campagnolo bolts are stamped with Campagnolo on the rim and are 8 or 10 mm in diameter.


The frame is nicely repainted, but it is not accurate. The original model name on the seat tube was a sticker applied after the clear. It varied in actual text, the variations that confound many. The world champ colors did vary in orientation, many have the green oriented to the seat tube herald, this one has both oriented the same way.

No doubt much money was spent on the refinish, possibly even rechrome, Big dollars that will rarely be recovered.

There is a sales section on the Forum. Advertising it in a information seeking post is poor taste.

Cinelli serial numbers are all over the map, if you can find the old Cinelli serial number database, (I could not bring it back up, possibly moved) it is plain to see, frame details are the best rational indicator, geometry, lug detailing, inclusion or absence of the spring hole on the drive side rear dropout, and inclusion or not of an oil port on the bottom bracket, also details such as inclusion of rear fender mount boss on the chainstay bridge.

As to value- lets start with a Cinelli frame in need of refinishing, $800- 1,200. the paint, graphics, chrome and project management, $2,000 to 2,600. value when done $1,800 to 2,000

Bicycle owners do not get rich restoring bikes, maybe if they have a Confente or Rene Herse, Maybe.

The group set, wrong for the frame era, in nice shape, but no longer NOS, it has been installed, $2,500.

Ancillary parts, $500. if you shop well.

Assembly cost, a sunk cost, the owner pays, no one values it. Whenever I purchase a bike, I totally repack Everything. I have Always found shortcomings, just how it is.

Many vintage traders lament that a bike parted out is greater than whole.

There as a recent example, John Barron, a smart collector, he offered a nice track bike for under $2,000. to the CR group, no takers, then offered the frame set for $1,200 the bars and stem for $500. he still has a pristine Campagnolo wheel set, pista crank set, bottom bracket, pedals , seatpost, saddle, toe clips and straps to move along. This happened to him years ago too with a full Campagnolo (may have had Mafac brakes) NOS LeJeune, on the verge of dismemberment he found someone who bought it whole, probably at a discount, the buyer kept it intact. Profit was not maximized. No effort to take it apart and market the elements a la carte, there is some time saved.


The bike is pretty, but not correct. the 50th anniversary group came along over a decade later. I have not studied the frame, the 50th anniversary group was in the 126mm six speed era. The full zoot kit would inclued a Campagnolo freewheel, 6 cogs, not part of the 50th group, but if one is going full tilt, throw it in. Every Cinelli frame of the era you are offering was 120mm spaced that came into the shop that I worked at 45+ years ago. If it is 126mm it has been spread, (99.9% sure) a downer to many, acceptable to some, but not period correct.

Richard Sachs has stated that he has "kicking and screaming" spread frames from 120 to 126mm. I think that is a turn of phrase, but shows his reluctance.


You have an attractive bike that could be duplicated for about $5,000. quite a bit less if not needing a respray and rechrome.

Note the condition of the top nut on the headset... that is too bad. The Gold chain? Channeling Mr. T.

That is how I arrived at a value.

Cinelli frames of this era cannot accept a Campagnolo seat binder bolt, the opening is not big enough and too wide. Campagnolo bolts are stamped with Campagnolo on the rim and are 8 or 10 mm in diameter.


The frame is nicely repainted, but it is not accurate. The original model name on the seat tube was a sticker applied after the clear. It varied in actual text, the variations that confound many.

No doubt much money was spent on the refinish, possibly even rechrome, Big dollars that will rarely be recovered.

There is a sales section on the Forum. Advertising it in a information seeking post is poor taste.

Cinelli serial numbers are all over the map, if you can find the old Cinelli serial number database, (I could not bring it back up, possibly moved) it is plain to see, frame details are the best rational indicator, geometry, lug detailing, inclusion or absence of the spring hole on the drive side rear dropout, and inclusion or not of an oil port on the bottom bracket, also details such as inclusion of rear fender mount boss on the chainstay bridge.

As to value- lets start with a Cinelli frame in need of refinishing, $800- 1,200. the paint, graphics, chrome and project management, $2,000 to 2,600. value when done $1,800 to 2,000

Bicycle owners do not get rich restoring bikes, maybe if they have a Confente or Rene Herse, Maybe.

The group set, wrong for the frame era, in nice shape, but no longer NOS, it has been installed, $2,500.

Ancillary parts, $500. if you shop well.

Assembly cost, a sunk cost, the owner pays, no one values it. Whenever I purchase a bike, I totally repack Everything. I have Always found shortcomings, just how it is.

Many vintage traders lament that a bike parted out is greater than whole.

There as a recent example, John Barron, a smart collector, he offered a nice track bike for under $2,000. to the CR group, no takers, then offered the frame set for $1,200 the bars and stem for $500. he still has a pristine Campagnolo wheel set, pista crank set, bottom bracket, pedals , seatpost, saddle, toe clips and straps to move along. This happened to him years ago too with a full Campagnolo NOS LeJeune, on the verge of dismemberment he found someone who bought it whole, probably at a discount, the buyer kept it intact. Profit was not maximized. No effort to take it apart and market the elements a la carte, there is some time saved.


The bike is pretty, but not correct. the 50th anniversary group came along over a decade later. I have not studied the frame, the 50th anniversary group was in the 126mm six speed era. The full zoot kit would inclued a Campagnolo freewheel, 6 cogs, not part of the 50th group, but if one is going full tilt, throw it in. Every Cinelli frame of the era you are offering was 120mm spaced that came into the shop that I worked at 45+ years ago. If it is 126mm it has been spread, (99.9% sure) a downer to many, acceptable to some, but not period correct.

Richard Sachs has stated that he has "kicking and screaming" spread frames from 120 to 126mm. I think that is a turn of phrase, but shows his reluctance.


You have an attractive bike that could be duplicated for about $5,000. quite a bit less if not needing a respray and rechrome.

That is how I arrived at a value.

As stated above, that is not a Campagnolo binding bolt..

But if we remove that from the equation, then 1970 - 1974 is the range for production year. I really don't think the exact year matters one whit.

To confuse things, my probable 1971 has no dropout fender eyelets.
This one may have come with fenders. For many those were left with the selling bike shop. Fenders on a race bike?!?

Exactly. There are no hard and fast rules to this. Early 70s works for me. Add $1000 in parts if it still had fenders. $6k.

repechage... Thank you very much for the extremely detailed information. You educated me, which was my goal in posting the request for help. I'll have to check the seat post binder to see what it is. I'm glad I know it's not campy so I don't improperly state the specs. I have the same issue with an early 1970s Schwinn Paramount -- the hole for the seat post binder is too small to accept a typical 8mm binder. I will probably end up buying one on eBay but first I want to verify what the original looked like.

One of the reasons I asked for help in dating the frame is that I saw a 1966 Cinelli SC on eBay that has the same color and decals but doesn't have holes in the lugs or chrome on the fork, seat stays or chain stays. The SN is 2717 with the bike above being 2485. I wondered if the bike might be older than 1972.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/11362358461...IAAOSw0TpcXFEz

The collector who owns the bike likes to make them as beautiful as possible even if everything isn't period correct. Many of his bikes have been repainted by either Brain Baylis or Joe Bell. On the frames I'm building out for him, he either gives me the parts he wants installed or tells me what he wants in the way of components, etc. and I source them. He's been collecting for over 45 years and has been quite successful when selling them or entering them in competitions.

My personal vintage bikes are comparatively cheap -- mostly Japanese, French and American framed bikes. I try to keep them original or period correct. I knew nothing about Italian frames before I met him and am on a steep learning curve.

Thank you for adding to my knowledge base.

Cinelli serial numbers are totally arbitrary.
my bike has a number near half of that 1966 bike, years, years later.

you have a client, he has an aesthetic.

There have not been “Pebble Beach” level concours or bike shows of real merit for almost a decade in my view. Just how it is. So, in one regard there is assembly freedom. There is no Silverware to chase.

I would not get hung up with detailing the Exact components of any one bike. Good images will reveal the build. The Cinelli you presented has at least one Campagnolo shift cable, images that put both on focus will be appreciated by some. The unfortunate headset top nut and upper cup will be also.

a Steintool headset locknut wrench would be a good purchase if you have a number of bikes to build. Grabs 6 of the eight points.

The binder bolt for the Paramount was a fairly common one used on many 70's bikes, assuming the one you are working on has the notch in the hole for such, they are available here, they are stated to be Cinelli.

Found more - 2nd tier Seatpost binder by Cinelli for classic 60's bikes - not for Cinelli

that may be too big if a 8mm bolt does not fit.
60's Paramounts were a bit different. A fair chance it would have come with a bolt with AS stamped on the head with the formed key to prevent rotation.
May have been the same part as used on the eletro-forged bikes.

You may be right, my 58 Paramount, has the AS bolt and is about 7.75mm at the threads, one from Boulder that I have is about 7.94mm and the bolt from the 72 Paramount is about 7.84mm.

Grand scheme wise, there is very little difference and I would be trying to make sure on the original one and go with that even if it meant a small amount of reaming that might be less than .2mm or just sand down the bolt to get there.

If the bolt ends up being an electro-forge version, I would strongly consider changing it.

The OP states his as an early? 70's, the s/n will tell us so we will know.

Unfortunately, the serial numbers are unreliable at best. The Cinelli Only blog is the most comprehensive listing of serial numbers I know of and bikes made before the mid 70's are very random.

Sorry my friend, we switched gears momentarily to the Paramount when we veered off on the SP binder and the OP asked about the Paramount he will also be working on.

I am well aware of the Cinelli s/n conundrum, I have one that was narrowed down to 60-61 by PO, CR and others that even with the 74mm BB, oil and drain ports in BB.

It still got very little traction or clarification here despite much discussion, weighing in and hand wringing, et al.

It was narrowed down some from the s/n when several close to it were found to be a little more telling than usual while still not much more.

The Velo Retro timeline page is the best guide I've found for dating Cinelli frames. Based on it, your appears to be very early 1970s, but you can draw your own conclusions.

Serial numbers are no help at all in dating Cinellis up to at least when the Columbos bought Cinelli (1978, if memory serves). I have two mid-1960s SCs, identical geometry. Except for the color, nothing to distinguish them, and they cannot have been built more than two years apart. One is serial # 14xx, the other 85xx. I/m quite certain Cinelli did not build 7,000 frames in that time. Also, I had a 1972ish SC that is serial #15xx. Go figure.

What I find interesting, and it's probably only me, from 1947-1979, Cino Cinelli pretty much stuck to a 4-digit numeric serial system. Yes, there are exceptions, but that puts total production of 10k frames for 32 years, a little over 300/year. I haven't seen a duplicate number, yet .

Something is odd with the math. Or, with me.

I'd heard that 300 frames per year was about the right number as well.

Chuck's timeline has 250/year in the 50s, 600-700 in the 70s, let's split it for the 60s at 400-500.

Something is odd with the math. Or, with me.

From observation, the bikes were available, but not in terrific quantities at least in the USA.
Spence Wolf was probably a very notable dealer/importer at least on the West coast.
He kept a flow arriving and good records. Someone has those records, but I recall about 45-60 per year on average once things got going?
There were clusters of near sequential numbers, maybe a way to help keep track on the shop floor if nothing more.

From the Cinelli Only web site:

Cupertino Bike Shop / Spence Wolfe Sales 1955-1977
In the USA the largest sellers of Cinelli bikes were Kopp's Cycles, the oldest bicycle shop in America, in Princeton, NJ and the Cupertino Bike Shop of Spence Wolfe in Cupertino, California.

The yearly Cinelli sales numbers from the Cupertino Bike Shop/Spence Wolfe records , 1955-1977:

Total sold from 1955-1977
SC = 649
Mod. B = 79
Pista = 32

SC by year:
1954 = 0
1955 = 1
1956 = 1
1957 = 18
1958 = 15
1959 = 29
1960 = 26
1961 = 53
1962 = 31
1963 = 15
1964 = 19
1965 = 28
1966 = 25
1967 = 25
1968 = 18
1969 = 49
1970 = 67
1971 = 60
1972 = 71
1973 = 66
1974 = 13
1975 = 13
1976 = 4
1977 = 2

Mod B by year:
1954 = 0
1955 = 4
1956 = 9
1957 = 10
1958 = 7
1959 = 15
1960 = 3
1961 = 2
1962 = 3
1963 = 7
1964 = 9
1965 = 8
1966 = 2
1967 = No sales recorded from this point

Pista by year:
1954 = 0
1955 = 0
1956 = 1
1957 = 3
1958 = 1
1959 = 4
1960 = 0
1961 = 5
1962 = 0
1963 = 1
1964 = 4
1965 = 2
1966 = 4
1967 = 1
1968 = 3
1969 = 0
1970 = 1
1971 = 0
1972 = 1
1973 = 0
1974 = 1
1975 = No sales recorded from this point