jonny7

Hi, I had this early 70s frame with French campy parts but with a stuck adjustable cup on the NDS. Brought it to my local bike shop a long time ago and the spindle + bearing + right cup got "lost" in this many-month operation (basically left the bike there throughout winter). I'm not able to tell if these were Nuovo Record of Gran Sport.

Today I went bck to the shop to make sure the parts weren't hidden there somewhere in a box. I found a matching cup (35 x 1) and an axle (68-SS-120). I'm not sure if these are mine but they might as well be. Anyway, I tried to install them back on the bike today - despite the fact that the adjustable cup is still stuck in there. When I brought the bike to the shop, there was a slight play in the axle. Now I am unable to get rid of a 2mm play, so surely I'm missing something here. Did these French BB require specific bearings? I tried without success new caged bearings and spare bearings from another campy BB from the same era. I also made sure the longer side of the spindle was in the direction of the chainrings. Or could it be my axle? Any insight is appreciated! Thanks.

bulgie 

Back then, Campy made Record and Nuovo Record BB sets. The difference was NR had thicker cups with a spiral groove cut in the cup, in the hole where the spindle passes through the cup. Supposed to expel water/dirt, dunno if it worked... But the main upshot is, spindles made for thick NR cups have their two cones closer together.

Sounds like maybe your spindle is too narrow, in the spacing between the cones, i.e. you might be using an NR spindle with a Record (thin wall) cup.

Does your cup have a spiral groove in the spindle hole?

jonny7

Very interesting. I'll check this out tomorrow. My guess would be that the cups are more likely to be "plain" Record.

merziac

Not saying this would solve your problem but IMHO, you're gonna have to get that stuck cup out of there, I would do it now so it doesn't compound whatever other nonsense may or may not be going on here, just sayin.

Another good example of why I have no sense of humor about completely servicing bottom brackets properly, every time, all the time.

Some of this would have been avoided.

jonny7

I wish I could but I’ve literally tried everything and so did the shop . Our next solution was heat but we were afraid to damage the paint. It’s not a super high end frame, at least. But I do agree with you. Had the previous owner taken care of the BB, I wouldn’t be typing this.

JohnDThompson 

No, the bearings were the same regardless of thread spec. As others have suggested, you could be trying a Nuovo Record spindle with Record cups. You may also run into crank arm compatibility issues, if the bottom bracket is pre-CSPC an the crank post-CSPC (or vice-versa).

In any case, you need to get the adjustable cup out or you'll never be able to properly adjust the bearings. Use the Sheldon Brown method:


https://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

repechage

The adjustable cup is the one on the non drive side with the 6 notch lock ring.
if that is stuck and you are attempting to assemble it with misc parts, not a plan for success.
68-ss-120 would be Nuovo Record with the reverse spiraling, that thickness makes the bearing tracks closer to center.


the adjustable cup is on the left- if stuck, that has to come out.
french fixed cups are notorious for needed if to be really well torqued to stay in place and not proceed out while in use.

merziac

I'll add the air impact wrench to Sheldon's method, that I normally don't advocate and you may need to use a longer bolt with 2 nuts and drive from through the DS so it tightens as you lean into it as opposed to trying to unwind it from the NDS.

And this, mini air powered mini cut off tool, these can do amazing things where its very hard to get into and would be a challenge here.

https://www.harborfreight.com/18-in-...kit-60244.html

And mini cut off wheels for a Dremel

https://www.dremel.com/us/en/p/420-2615000420

SurferRosa

A stuck adjustable cup?

Treat it like a stuck stem or stuck seatpost with a liquid concoction and time. Lay the frame down on the nds and dribble your concoction down the ds side of the bb shell down between the adjustable cup and shell. Wait a week. Try to free it. Repeat.

What concoction to use? Equal parts atf and acetone? Maybe. Or CRC Freeze-Off, PB Blaster, or other penetrating oil.

It's lefty-loosey!

JohnDThompson 

There is a shop-grade version of the Sheldon Brown tool; Kingsbridge made one, as did Zeus. And here's a comparison of the Nuovo Record ("thick") and Record ("thin") cups, to help with identification:

jonny7

Seems like I have record cups with two NR spindle (notice however the difference in the taper).

Spaghetti Legs 

First rule of Campagnolo Club is there are no “quick” bottom bracket questions. Well, maybe except “Is this a Campagnolo bottom bracket ?”

Sorry not much more help than that.

jdawginsc 

I did not know there was an adjustable cup tool made. Interesting.

Mad Honk 

That Kingsbridge made tool does not work very well because of the space between the two ends. It doesn't get tight enough on the cups and allows for some slippage. I have made a version here that I refer to as a junk yard tool, but it works. Made from two black sockets, two race car lug nuts, and one race car wheel stud. It took bit of welding and clean up grinding but my 20" breaker bar gives me all the leverage needed to break any stuck cup free. Pics:

Both ends of the tool that screw together inside the bottom bracket and outside the stuck cup.

Note that the nuts make a perfect contact so no slippage can occur.
HTH, Smiles, MH

bulgie 

Your picture (above, cropped) shows a NR (thick) cup. I can see the spiral grooves. We still don't know what your adjustable cup is, got any pix of that?

You really, really need to break that adj cup loose, or else get a new frame! No way you'll be able to adjust the bearing via the fixed cup. If it means damaging the paint then so be it, the alternative is new frame anyway.

The pin wrench method is iffy for a really stuck cup, because you can break the pins. Might want to go straight to the Sheldon bolt method, plus heat as necessary.

jonny7

Holy cow you're totally right. I don't know where I was looking but I wasn't looking where I was supposed to. So the fixed cup I picked up at the shop is NR. However the stuck cup has no spiral groove. Sounds like game over, until I'm able to remove the stuck cup and to fin a new french BB

bulgie 

Did the bike originally have a triple chainring? That could explain the thin Record cup. After NR came out (when, '67 maybe?) road bikes all got the NR BB, the only exceptions being Track and Triple. & maybe cyclocross, I forget. Campy in their infinite wisdom never made NR BBs in track or triple, so those spindle lengths continued to have the wide cone spacing for thin cups. A thin Record cup on a road bike with a double isn't impossible, but very rare once you get into the '70s.

Road Fan

Is it possible that in attempts to turn the adjustable cup loose, it it being turned in the wrong direction? Unintentionally being tightened ever harder rather than being loosened?

bulgie 

Anything's possible, but a bike shop that doesn't know which way loosens a right-hand thread wouldn't stay in business very long.

repechage

they thought is was a press fit

repechage

Except the French, the earlier Record bottom brackets in French thread were still on distributor shelves into the mid 70's.

Apollo TBS distributors had the Nuovo in French at prices that exceeded retail prices.

bulgie 

Thanks, I didn't know that. So, French road bikes with double cranks, we can expect thin Record cups later by some years after they went away in English? Fun fact!

I do have some thin French cups in my Campy BB box, maybe that explains why I have them. Never had a French track bike myself, or a Frenchie with a Campy triple, the other two main ways to end up with thin cups.

Hmm, "French bikes that came with a Campy triple crank", that's a pretty narrow niche category. Like none, that I can recall. Anyone know of one?

Mark B

JohnDThompson 

It is intended to be used on a fixed cup, but there's no reason why it wouldn't work on an adjustable cup too, provided you can remove all the other bottom bracket parts.

JohnDThompson 

Gran Sport and its derivatives (Triomphe, Victory) also used "thin" cups.

Mr. 66

Wouldn't have any issue putting heat to the cup, I would heat the cup up to the point that solidified grease melts and wick some new grease into the threads. Then try the wrenching. The grease melts well before paint damage. I had to do this on a bike that broke the pin wrench.