Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Help Id'ing Mystery Frame. Nervex Lugs. Paramount?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Help Id'ing Mystery Frame. Nervex Lugs. Paramount?

Old 07-28-22, 03:46 PM
  #1  
kfro12
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Help Id'ing Mystery Frame. Nervex Lugs. Paramount?

Hi all-
Came across this frame and couldn't pass it up for the price.
Looks to be high quality. Frame is in great shape, minus one small ding on the top tube.
​​​​​​I haven't had a chance to measure anything other than it is a 52cm and for 27" wheels.
4 digit serial number on the bb shell, 6007
"A" stamped on non-drive seat tube cluster
Dropouts are CampyLooks to have a faint Columbus logo stamped on the seat tube near the bottom bracket.
I am leaning towards Paramount mainly because of wishful thinking and it looks like it had a Schwinn headbadge on it at one point.
Any ideas? I think the "A" might be a big clue.
Thanks







​​​​​
kfro12 is offline  
Old 07-28-22, 04:00 PM
  #2  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,003
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times in 1,203 Posts
Fischer crown
Looks like RH drive side bottom bracket threading.
Columbus
Italian style stay end treatment.

Not a Paramount.
Is Pretty sure Italian.

Not sure on the placement of the head badge holes.

The seat lug ears may or might not be filled with a tube and or brass.

Closer to a Masi, but I do not think that either.
There were a bunch of Italian builders who could make a frame like that.
At the time this appears built from the fender threading port on the chainstay bridge....Masi did not use serial numbers.
Would have had a size stamp on the BB seat tube spigot.

I think built for tubulars "700c" not 27"
repechage is offline  
Likes For repechage:
Old 07-28-22, 05:14 PM
  #3  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 12,262
Mentioned: 349 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3013 Post(s)
Liked 1,703 Times in 1,225 Posts
-----

the A marking comes from lug manufacturer NERVEX

it indicates "Anglais" meaning lug is intended for BSC dimension tubing

when chainstay bridges exhibit a hole as for mudguard attachment it is typically horizontal rather than the vertical of the subject frame, may be a helpful clue for the experts...

the Campag Nr. 621 "tends" to be confirmatory of an Italy origin although it was employed in other lands as well

expect steerer to exhibit internal helical splines/"rifling"

expect saddle pillar size of 27.0 or 27.2

OEM spacing would have been 100mm front and 120mm rear

if you measure brake centres with 700 size wheels in place it can give you an indication of brake model envisioned by frame maker

for example centres of 50.5mm front paired with 64mm rear would be indicative of Universal model 51
while centres of 55.5mm & 64mm would be indicative of Universal model 61

one check you could make is the distance between the headplate mounting holes
no caliper required
lay the edge of a piece of paper against the head tube and make a mark for each of the fastener holes
then measure with a metric rule

there is one company who produced headplates for many hundreds of marques and they offered standard shapes at a lower cost vs a custom shape
so if headplate was one of these patterns it only reduces possibilities down to a few hundreds instead of thousands

date appears roughly mid-to-late 1960's

forum experts will be along shortly to give much more and better information

-----

Last edited by juvela; 07-28-22 at 06:38 PM. Reason: addition
juvela is offline  
Likes For juvela:
Old 07-28-22, 07:09 PM
  #4  
Feldman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 44 Posts
60's Masi Special I think.
Feldman is offline  
Old 07-28-22, 07:27 PM
  #5  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 12,262
Mentioned: 349 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3013 Post(s)
Liked 1,703 Times in 1,225 Posts
Originally Posted by Feldman View Post
60's Masi Special I think.
-----

what year did it receive the round-oval-round chainstays?


-----
juvela is offline  
Old 07-28-22, 07:30 PM
  #6  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: PAZ
Posts: 11,929
Mentioned: 250 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2355 Post(s)
Liked 3,952 Times in 1,397 Posts
Is that bare metal or faded chrome? I ask out of curiosity, because normally if a frame's left unpainted, the brazing material can be seen on the lug shorelines, etc.

What's the BB shell threading?

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 07-28-22, 07:53 PM
  #7  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,003
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times in 1,203 Posts
Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Is that bare metal or faded chrome? I ask out of curiosity, because normally if a frame's left unpainted, the brazing material can be seen on the lug shorelines, etc.

What's the BB shell threading?

DD
99% it is Italian - study the BB close up, looks regular RH threading to me.
repechage is offline  
Old 07-28-22, 08:00 PM
  #8  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,003
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times in 1,203 Posts
Originally Posted by Feldman View Post
60's Masi Special I think.
I could be persuaded.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/652143...57649024798944

shows similar chainstays, bridge.
Masi had two sized of headbadge. I do not have one to measure.
the Flickr album does not have the money shot of the post slot end, nor does the snaps of the frame presented.
repechage is offline  
Old 07-28-22, 09:39 PM
  #9  
Drillium Dude 
Gone riding
 
Drillium Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: PAZ
Posts: 11,929
Mentioned: 250 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2355 Post(s)
Liked 3,952 Times in 1,397 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage View Post

I could be persuaded...the Flickr album does not have the money shot of the post slot end, nor does the snaps of the frame presented.
But it does have this:



Compared to this:



I see a family resemblance, too. And if that's bare steel, it must have been silver brazed.

DD
__________________
My Flickr pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

Drillium Dude is offline  
Old 07-29-22, 12:33 AM
  #10  
verktyg 
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,008

Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1990 Bianchi Mondiale, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA Team Pro, 1973 Holdsworth

Mentioned: 200 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1019 Post(s)
Liked 1,146 Times in 620 Posts
Masi ? Maybe No ?

This was the finest Masi I'd ever seen. It was on eBay back in 2011. When the bidding got over $4k it was too rich for my blood, especially for a bike that would have been a wall hanger.



Nervex Professional lugs, Fischer fork crown... Check!



Flat top seat stays, Check... But wait, that's a Reynolds sticker on a frame with Columbus tubing.... Masi used Reynolds 531.



Columbus SL tubing... 0.6mm x 0.9mm wall thickness...



My guess, the frame in question is from some top end Italian builder, probably from the late 60's.

verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....

Chas. ;-)

verktyg is offline  
Old 07-29-22, 10:21 AM
  #11  
kfro12
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Is that bare metal or faded chrome? I ask out of curiosity, because normally if a frame's left unpainted, the brazing material can be seen on the lug shorelines, etc.

What's the BB shell threading?

DD
Thank you all for weighing in! So much knowledge on this forum.
Took a few measurements.

120mm rear spacing27.0 Seat PostItalian Bottom Bracket
​​​​​​I am not sure what is going on with the finish. It seems like it is chrome or bare metal coated with something that has become a bit sticky over time. I scraped away a bit of it on the down tube where there was some finish damage and it looks like chrome.







kfro12 is offline  
Likes For kfro12:
Old 07-29-22, 03:07 PM
  #12  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 12,262
Mentioned: 349 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3013 Post(s)
Liked 1,703 Times in 1,225 Posts
-----

here are two earlier forum discussion threads on Masi Special examples for comparison. -

1965(?) Masi Special

Old Italian Bike ID request


-----
juvela is offline  
Likes For juvela:
Old 07-29-22, 05:07 PM
  #13  
kfro12
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

here are two earlier forum discussion threads on Masi Special examples for comparison. -

1965(?) Masi Special

Old Italian Bike ID request


-----
Thanks for all the info. and direction. Everything is looking consistent with a 60's Masi.
Now I just wish it was a 54cm. Regardless, should be a fun restoration project.
kfro12 is offline  
Old 07-29-22, 05:59 PM
  #14  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 12,262
Mentioned: 349 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3013 Post(s)
Liked 1,703 Times in 1,225 Posts
Originally Posted by kfro12 View Post
Thanks for all the info. and direction. Everything is looking consistent with a 60's Masi.
Now I just wish it was a 54cm. Regardless, should be a fun restoration project.
-----

happily the correct replica transfers are readily available

finding a headplate might be more difficult...and dear...or you could always go with a transfer...





https://www.ebay.com/itm/25550497409...yABEgK0tPD_BwE

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26571000703...75.c101224.m-1

https://velocals.com/masi-head-badge-decal/

---

Masi Registry Italy

---

you may wish to begin a new thread on the frame when you commence work

---

sadly, the forum member who was the OP of the second thread linked to above passed to his reward about two or three year back - far too soon!

extremely gifted and a very fine person

-----
juvela is offline  
Old 07-31-22, 04:00 PM
  #15  
kfro12
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

happily the correct replica transfers are readily available

finding a headplate might be more difficult...and dear...or you could always go with a transfer...





https://www.ebay.com/itm/25550497409...yABEgK0tPD_BwE

https://www.ebay.com/itm/26571000703...75.c101224.m-1

https://velocals.com/masi-head-badge-decal/

---

Masi Registry Italy

---

you may wish to begin a new thread on the frame when you commence work

---

sadly, the forum member who was the OP of the second thread linked to above passed to his reward about two or three year back - far too soon!

extremely gifted and a very fine person

-----
Thanks again Juvela. I appreciate the links and info.
You aren't kidding about the price of a head badge. Crazy.
kfro12 is offline  
Old 07-31-22, 07:58 PM
  #16  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,003
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times in 1,203 Posts
I would look to Italian eBay for the headbadge, note you need the smaller one. The big frames used a taller badge.
drive screw rivets to install.

no Alberto signature, in fact this was before even Falerio used one, that came with the GC.

this one deserves an original pro level paint job.
of course an alternate could be a Tom Simpson tribute and paint it as a Peugeot PX-10.
the bike is a bit early but they stayed the same.
repechage is offline  
Old 07-31-22, 08:44 PM
  #17  
machinist42
mycocyclist
 
machinist42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Monkey Junction, Wilmington, NC
Posts: 2,020

Bikes: 1964 Schwinn Paramount P-13 DeLuxe, 1964 Schwinn Sport Super Sport, 1972 Falcon San Remo, 1974 Maserati MT-1, 1974 Raleigh International, 1984 Lotus Odyssey, 198? Rossin Ghibli, 1990 LeMond Le Vanquer (sic), 1991 Specialized Allez Transition Pro, +

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 812 Post(s)
Liked 531 Times in 322 Posts
Rain On Parade

Originally Posted by kfro12 View Post
...wishful thinking and it looks like it had a Schwinn headbadge on it at one point....​​​​​
Originally Posted by kfro12 View Post
Thanks for all the info. and direction. Everything is looking consistent with a 60's Masi.
...
Is everything "looking consistent with a '60's Masi?"
- It has a serial number stamped in the BB and Masi did not do that there.
- It does not have a size stamped on the BB where the downtube joins, and Masi did do that there.
- it is of Columbus and as has been pointed out, Masi used Reynolds.

Perhaps it would be prudent to post it over on Classic Rendezvous for their evaluation before you drop a bundle on a headbadge which may or may not fit, and decals which may or may not be appropriate?
machinist42 is offline  
Old 07-31-22, 11:26 PM
  #18  
etherhuffer 
Senior Member
 
etherhuffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Seattle
Posts: 1,087

Bikes: Surly Long Haul Trucker,81 Fuji Gran Tour SE, 83 Fuji S12S LTD, Voyageur 11.8 chrome, Raleigh R300 Touring, Voyageur 11.8

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked 252 Times in 120 Posts
Maybe someone did rattle can chrome? I have seen that, and top coated aluminized stuff. Maybe use stripper on a small area. If it bubles its not chrome. Which makes me wonder, did someone do this to cover up a bunch of surface rust?
etherhuffer is offline  
Old 08-02-22, 05:46 PM
  #19  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,003
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times in 1,203 Posts
Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
Is everything "looking consistent with a '60's Masi?"
- It has a serial number stamped in the BB and Masi did not do that there.
- It does not have a size stamped on the BB where the downtube joins, and Masi did do that there.
- it is of Columbus and as has been pointed out, Masi used Reynolds.

Perhaps it would be prudent to post it over on Classic Rendezvous for their evaluation before you drop a bundle on a headbadge which may or may not fit, and decals which may or may not be appropriate?
Masi used Both, my 1970 GC is Columbus.
I think it was who provided the better deal, was willing to extend credit.
Not all Masi frames got stamped.
The numbers that are there are odd but the original paint is long gone. As the frame and fork both have stamps, be effective for tracking during a repaint. (not through Masi, they usually used a single numeral on the bottom of the bottom bracket spigot.)
The final elements that Point to Masi, the filled in seat lug ears, the threaded boss under the chainstay bridge, consistent with others. The filing near square of the radius of the dropouts.
I am not going to buy a smaller scale Masi headbadge, but I reckon the holes would line up.

I still promote painting it as a Tom Simpson Peugeot race bike. examples of them with no chrome, black Nervex lugs, painted Fischer crown.
repechage is offline  
Old 08-02-22, 06:43 PM
  #20  
machinist42
mycocyclist
 
machinist42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Monkey Junction, Wilmington, NC
Posts: 2,020

Bikes: 1964 Schwinn Paramount P-13 DeLuxe, 1964 Schwinn Sport Super Sport, 1972 Falcon San Remo, 1974 Maserati MT-1, 1974 Raleigh International, 1984 Lotus Odyssey, 198? Rossin Ghibli, 1990 LeMond Le Vanquer (sic), 1991 Specialized Allez Transition Pro, +

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 812 Post(s)
Liked 531 Times in 322 Posts
Overlooking,,,

Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Masi used Both, my 1970 GC is Columbus.
I think it was who provided the better deal, was willing to extend credit.
Not all Masi frames got stamped.
The numbers that are there are odd but the original paint is long gone. As the frame and fork both have stamps, be effective for tracking during a repaint. (not through Masi, they usually used a single numeral on the bottom of the bottom bracket spigot.)
The final elements that Point to Masi, the filled in seat lug ears, the threaded boss under the chainstay bridge, consistent with others. The filing near square of the radius of the dropouts.
I am not going to buy a smaller scale Masi headbadge, but I reckon the holes would line up.

I still promote painting it as a Tom Simpson Peugeot race bike. examples of them with no chrome, black Nervex lugs, painted Fischer crown.
I do not dispute that many attributes suggest Masi, but rather that there are inconsistencies, which taken together, may be significant.

To say this example "is consistent" with an early 1960's Masi is inaccurate.

The Folks at CR, and MauriceMoss., may find further issues, or find those already identified trivial? .

(Once examined a very impressive Cinelli "copy" featuring only one inconsistency, and then when an authentic headbadge wouldn't fit, two.)
machinist42 is offline  
Old 08-03-22, 07:25 AM
  #21  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,003
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,629 Times in 1,203 Posts
Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
I do not dispute that many attributes suggest Masi, but rather that there are inconsistencies, which taken together, may be significant.

To say this example "is consistent" with an early 1960's Masi is inaccurate.

The Folks at CR, and MauriceMoss., may find further issues, or find those already identified trivial? .

(Once examined a very impressive Cinelli "copy" featuring only one inconsistency, and then when an authentic headbadge wouldn't fit, two.)
there was more than one size of Cinelli headbadge too.

my reasoning for painting it as a Simpson TdF Peugeot tribute remains, will keep those who question what it is calmer.

CR has degraded into a few members pumping the list for info and interest so they can make more profit at their used online bike shop or marketing for their refurbished eBay frame store. Then the big killer of discussion of clicker Ball point pen springs for dropout adjusters.
The end is nigh.

Last edited by repechage; 08-03-22 at 07:30 AM.
repechage is offline  
Old 08-03-22, 10:30 AM
  #22  
machinist42
mycocyclist
 
machinist42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Monkey Junction, Wilmington, NC
Posts: 2,020

Bikes: 1964 Schwinn Paramount P-13 DeLuxe, 1964 Schwinn Sport Super Sport, 1972 Falcon San Remo, 1974 Maserati MT-1, 1974 Raleigh International, 1984 Lotus Odyssey, 198? Rossin Ghibli, 1990 LeMond Le Vanquer (sic), 1991 Specialized Allez Transition Pro, +

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 812 Post(s)
Liked 531 Times in 322 Posts
All Seriousness Aside...

Originally Posted by repechage View Post
there was more than one size of Cinelli headbadge too.
Yes, I am aware. I am always amused with "fake" Cinelli headbadges in that they always look fake. And every Italian made fake Cinelli has had at least one anomaly, as if the builder couldn't bring themselves to exactly copy. Perhaps it's more like the big-A Art World, where I was adept at spotting forgeries? There the artist can rarely resist adding the tiniest bit of themselves to the copy. I thought it was subconscious a long time ago, but conversations with forgers convinced me that No, most know what they are doing.

I honestly don't care if OP's bike is a "True Masi" or not. Is an early Acer-Mex "Profesional" a Cinelli if it was built by a guy who made them for a quarter century, is of the same materials and construction, and rides the same? I don't have stickers on most of my riders, and all my bikes are riders. It's all about how it rolls for me.

Originally Posted by repechage View Post
my reasoning for painting it as a Simpson TdF Peugeot tribute remains, will keep those who question what it is calmer..
Très bien. Viva Homer!

Originally Posted by repechage View Post
CR has degraded into a few members pumping the list for info and interest so they can make more profit at their used online bike shop or marketing for their refurbished eBay frame store. Then the big killer of discussion of clicker Ball point pen springs for dropout adjusters.
The end is nigh.
The end is always nigh.

Using a ball point pen or a pencil or a dowel to secure the removable cradles on old Campagnolo or Zeus two bolt seat pillars is a good idea that sprang from that discussion of springs. The Merz that popped up and was snagged by one of those merchants you loathe was tempting, but shipping these days... There's a tree of knowledge on that site, but Good Questions to tap it are few and far between. And I enjoy reading the rambling ruminations of ancient Englishmen. It makes me feel youngishy.

I could level many criticisms on this Forum, but what's the point? My time is obviously better spent reading half veiled political screeds on solipsistic observations of someone assumed to be homeless and a thief riding what may or may not be a Masi on Portland's streets?
machinist42 is offline  
Old 08-05-22, 06:57 AM
  #23  
kfro12
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
I do not dispute that many attributes suggest Masi, but rather that there are inconsistencies, which taken together, may be significant.

To say this example "is consistent" with an early 1960's Masi is inaccurate.

The Folks at CR, and MauriceMoss., may find further issues, or find those already identified trivial? .

(Once examined a very impressive Cinelli "copy" featuring only one inconsistency, and then when an authentic headbadge wouldn't fit, two.)
I guess "is consistent" with Masi was a poor choice of words. I am not trying to pull one over on anyone or represent something that isn't.
Just a dude curious about a bike frame. I do appreciate all of the knowledge on this forum, definitely learning much about the minutia of identifying different makers.
kfro12 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.