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Japanese equivalent of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi quality-status-pedigree

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Japanese equivalent of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi quality-status-pedigree

Old 10-11-22, 09:17 AM
  #51  
seypat
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Originally Posted by jet sanchEz View Post
Love my PR5000

I have a bunch of nice italian steel and this thing is on par with the best of them


It has a number hanger!
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Old 10-11-22, 09:21 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
When you say 'unnamed Japanese robot', are you claiming robots built all the high quality Japanese road bikes from the 80s or are you calling the people who built the frames 'robots'?

Either way is wrong/bad.
Oh God I stated neither.
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Old 10-11-22, 09:21 AM
  #53  
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Well, for me, that chroming is a sign of attention to detail--it's a sign of "quality finishing." The filing on the dropouts is a good example, and I'd put the Cinelli up against just about anyone. I don't know what the inside of my BB shell looks like either.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the lower end 70's bike boom bikes had chrome socks in the fork blades and rear DO's.
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Old 10-11-22, 09:23 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Oh God I stated neither.
The fact that I know that a guy named Mario Camilotto built my frame, versus an unnamed Japanese robot, certainly helps in the mystique department.
Looks like you did.

Last edited by seypat; 10-11-22 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 10-11-22, 09:34 AM
  #55  
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I imagine every bike geek here has some sort of list regarding favorite bikes. The criteria for forming the list for each of us is different. I would not expect anyone to have the same list as me. That does not make my list not valid. I appreciate the diverse openings.
The list for today:
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Old 10-11-22, 09:34 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
It has a number hanger!
Honestly, that's my measure of a quality bike right there. Number hanger and internal top tube cable routing are just as pointless of measures of ride quality as lug chroming, but there's just something about the effort to do internal routing on a steel bike (don't care about modern carbon), especially if there's a guide tube for it, and a race number hanger on a late 80's/early 90's lugged steel frame that ticks all the boxes for me.

Nice lugs/engraving and top tube routing say it was expensive and number hanger says it was race worthy at a very formative period for me.

The most recent bike I just built up was a 1996 Merckx Titanium EX and I like it, but every time I look at it, I think to myself, "I with that pump peg was a number hanger like my Colnago and Concorde have" even though it's lighter and fits better than the Colnago (and wasn't wrecked when I got hit like the Concorde), and is the bike that draws attention from bike folks when I take it somewhere.
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Old 10-11-22, 09:44 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Oh God I stated neither.
You made the statement. Clarify what you mean so there isn't confusion.
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Old 10-11-22, 09:47 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Looks like you did.
No...I never stated "robots built all the high quality Japanese road bikes from the 80s," nor did I call "the people who built the frames 'robots," as much as you would like to think that's what I wrote. It's called "reading comprehension."
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Old 10-12-22, 08:41 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
No...I never stated "robots built all the high quality Japanese road bikes from the 80s," nor did I call "the people who built the frames 'robots," as much as you would like to think that's what I wrote. It's called "reading comprehension."
The fact that I know that a guy named Mario Camilotto built my frame, versus an unnamed Japanese robot, certainly helps in the mystique department
You said that since you have a name for an Italian frame vs a robot buiding a Japanese frame, the mystique is stronger.
We are talking about high status/pedigree bikes- so what Japanese brands were building high status pedigree bikes with robots 40 years ago? You mention Mario Camilotto who built for Pogliaghi and Cinelli, well that is pretty darn similar to Kochi Yamaguchi building for 3Rensho...right?

We arent talking about low/mid level offerings here.
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Old 10-12-22, 09:23 AM
  #60  
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The question in the title is about "quality-status-pedigree." Italian frames, have it, not so much with Japanese frames. I gave several reasons, which were summarily dismissed.

Although I'm still waiting to hear about a world-class Japanese road racing frame that has been in continuous production for over 70 years. Please, enlighten me. Maybe there is one and I've just never heard of it.
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Old 10-12-22, 10:03 AM
  #61  
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Here is an article comparing the quality of the Cinelli SCs you are citing as an example vs a bike model Cinelli made/contracted/? for a Japanese/US brand vs the company's bikes made in Japan. It appears that Cinelli's own bikes might have been the worst quailty of the 3.

https://velospace.org/node/13301
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Old 10-12-22, 10:33 AM
  #62  
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Speaking of mystique, placebo, legend, etc, I have a great story about it for the golfers out there. It involves giving a high handicap duffer a Mizuno MP 14 to hit some shots with. Great story, but you have to follow golf to get anything out of it.
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Old 10-12-22, 10:44 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by embankmentlb View Post
I imagine every bike geek here has some sort of list regarding favorite bikes. The criteria for forming the list for each of us is different. I would not expect anyone to have the same list as me. That does not make my list not valid. I appreciate the diverse openings.
The list for today:
3rensho
Fuso


Originally Posted by embankmentlb View Post
Guerciotti
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Old 10-12-22, 11:33 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Here is an article comparing the quality of the Cinelli SCs you are citing as an example vs a bike model Cinelli made/contracted/? for a Japanese/US brand vs the company's bikes made in Japan. It appears that Cinelli's own bikes might have been the worst quailty of the 3.
And yet...several people in that thread mention how people have been painting up those Equipe frames to appear as Supercorsas? I wonder why?

Many posts state those wannabe Cinellis weren't made in Japan. It appears that is a question...with folks on that thread leaning toward NOT made in Japan, but made in Italy?

Cyclart says," The bad news is; the frame was not made by Cinelli, and we will never decal one as such. The good news is; on a side by side comparison, especially with the paint off, the Centurion is lighter and considerably better crafted than Cinellis of that era. Very nice frames!" (And by "that era," we're talking 5 years before my frame was made--there are no file marks on my chromed lugs). So, there are other nice Italian frames? Who knew?

I'm not sure where the discussion of the Equipe/Cinelli leads us. The consensus seems that while it isn't a Cinelli, it's likely Italian, and probably isn't Japanese.

Last edited by smd4; 10-12-22 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 10-12-22, 12:01 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
And yet...several people in that thread mention how people have been painting up those Equipe frames to appear as Supercorsas? I wonder why?


Many posts state those wannabe Cinellis weren't made in Japan. It appears that is a question...with folks on that thread leaning toward NOT made in Japan, but made in Italy?


Cyclart says," The bad news is; the frame was not made by Cinelli, and we will never decal one as such. The good news is; on a side by side comparison, especially with the paint off, the Centurion is lighter and considerably better crafted than Cinellis of that era. Very nice frames!" (And by "that era," we're talking 5 years before my frame was made--there are no file marks on my chromed lugs). So, there are other nice Italian frames? Who knew?


I'm not sure where the discussion of Equipe/Cinelli leads us. The consensus seems that while it isn't a Cinelli, it's likely Italian, and probably isn't Japanese.
Because people will pay a premium for a nostalgic connection with their youth. When I started crit racing in the 70's with my used Hugh Porter and a mish-mash of components, including Zeus rear and front derailleurs, we would look at those fancy Italian bikes and only wish our paper routes were more profitable. Some of us were eventually able to upgrade and then realize there was no difference other than perception. These so-called premium bikes were everywhere at the time, and availability was unlimited. The mystique of a grizzled veteran frame builder sweating away under a Velodrome making these bikes one at a time, taking weeks per bike, was BS. They were produced by the thousands and are easily available even to this day.

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 10-12-22 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 10-12-22, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
And yet...several people in that thread mention how people have been painting up those Equipe frames to appear as Supercorsas? I wonder why?

Many posts state those wannabe Cinellis weren't made in Japan. It appears that is a question...with folks on that thread leaning toward NOT made in Japan, but made in Italy?

Cyclart says," The bad news is; the frame was not made by Cinelli, and we will never decal one as such. The good news is; on a side by side comparison, especially with the paint off, the Centurion is lighter and considerably better crafted than Cinellis of that era. Very nice frames!" (And by "that era," we're talking 5 years before my frame was made--there are no file marks on my chromed lugs). So, there are other nice Italian frames? Who knew?

I'm not sure where the discussion of the Equipe/Cinelli leads us. The consensus seems that while it isn't a Cinelli, it's likely Italian, and probably isn't Japanese.
It probably leads to the conclusion reached in the Confente thread. There is no mystique. All of these companies were/are producing bicycles to make a profit. You can probably make a better quality frame(steel) in a frame building class yourself. Why? Because you'll have a master craftsman/person checking the quality at every step and guiding you. You're not in it to make a buck, but rather to make the best product you can, period. You don't have to cut any corners. Simple as that.
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Old 10-12-22, 12:11 PM
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The Japanese make great frames. My first "good" bike was a Centurion, and I lusted after the 1985 Dura-Ace equipped Prestige--still probably the best-looking bike I've ever seen.

That said, the subject of this thread asks what are the Japanese equivalents of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi in terms of quality-status-pedigree.

We know the quality is there. But status and pedigree? I don't think any Japanese bike can yet measure up to many of the Italian marquees in these categories.
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Old 10-12-22, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
The Japanese make great frames. My first "good" bike was a Centurion, and I lusted after the 1985 Dura-Ace equipped Prestige--still probably the best-looking bike I've ever seen.

That said, the subject of this thread asks what are the Japanese equivalents of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi in terms of quality-status-pedigree.

We know the quality is there. But status and pedigree? I don't think any Japanese bike can yet measure up to many of the Italian marquees in these categories.
Plenty of examples have been given. We just happen to live in the USA where we think our opinions are the only ones that matter. Go to another part of the world and the opinion could be different.

BTW, I have an 85 Prestige. Rides about like the rest of the bikes in my stable. And the Dura Ace 7400, you either love it or don't. Built for one purpose. Not very versitale and doesn't really work with anything else.

Which brings us to my 72 Condor. Every bit the pedigree/mystique of the Cinelli SC you covet, but English. You know what, it rides about like the 85 Prestige and the rest of the bikes in my stable.

Last edited by seypat; 10-12-22 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 10-12-22, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
BTW, I have an 85 Prestige. Rides about like the rest of the bikes in my stable. And the Dura Ace 7400, you either love it or don't. Built for one purpose. Not very versitale and doesn't really work with anything else.
Why would I buy a bike like that for anything other than its intended purpose? If I want versatility, I'll buy a bike that I can put a front basket on.

There's a reason the Italian bikes have the cache they do. Nostalgia? Too simplistic. Somewhere along the line, they earned their reputation. In later years, did they rest on those laurels? Maybe. But like it or not, most of the folks into C&V road racing bikes would probably rather own an Italian brand than any of the others combined.
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Old 10-12-22, 12:39 PM
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This endless quibbling is a blemish on an otherwise interesting thread.

smd4 has his reasons for thinking his Cinelli is an apex bicycle to which no Japanese bike can hold a candle. Many of us may not agree with his reasons or even understand them, but that's ok. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind here.

"My bike is better than your bike" doesn't leave much room for interesting discussion.

Me, I'll take a Nagasawa road frame in 60 or 61cm please!

Brent
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Old 10-12-22, 12:46 PM
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Always lusted after one of the silver/gray Fuji Professionals of the late '70's. They looked beautiful.
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