Japanese equivalent of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi quality-status-pedigree
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#52
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Well, for me, that chroming is a sign of attention to detail--it's a sign of "quality finishing." The filing on the dropouts is a good example, and I'd put the Cinelli up against just about anyone. I don't know what the inside of my BB shell looks like either.
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I imagine every bike geek here has some sort of list regarding favorite bikes. The criteria for forming the list for each of us is different. I would not expect anyone to have the same list as me. That does not make my list not valid. I appreciate the diverse openings.
The list for today:
3rensho
Fuso
Guerciotti
The list for today:
3rensho
Fuso
Guerciotti
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Honestly, that's my measure of a quality bike right there. Number hanger and internal top tube cable routing are just as pointless of measures of ride quality as lug chroming, but there's just something about the effort to do internal routing on a steel bike (don't care about modern carbon), especially if there's a guide tube for it, and a race number hanger on a late 80's/early 90's lugged steel frame that ticks all the boxes for me.
Nice lugs/engraving and top tube routing say it was expensive and number hanger says it was race worthy at a very formative period for me.
The most recent bike I just built up was a 1996 Merckx Titanium EX and I like it, but every time I look at it, I think to myself, "I with that pump peg was a number hanger like my Colnago and Concorde have" even though it's lighter and fits better than the Colnago (and wasn't wrecked when I got hit like the Concorde), and is the bike that draws attention from bike folks when I take it somewhere.
Nice lugs/engraving and top tube routing say it was expensive and number hanger says it was race worthy at a very formative period for me.
The most recent bike I just built up was a 1996 Merckx Titanium EX and I like it, but every time I look at it, I think to myself, "I with that pump peg was a number hanger like my Colnago and Concorde have" even though it's lighter and fits better than the Colnago (and wasn't wrecked when I got hit like the Concorde), and is the bike that draws attention from bike folks when I take it somewhere.
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#59
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The fact that I know that a guy named Mario Camilotto built my frame, versus an unnamed Japanese robot, certainly helps in the mystique department
We are talking about high status/pedigree bikes- so what Japanese brands were building high status pedigree bikes with robots 40 years ago? You mention Mario Camilotto who built for Pogliaghi and Cinelli, well that is pretty darn similar to Kochi Yamaguchi building for 3Rensho...right?
We arent talking about low/mid level offerings here.
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The question in the title is about "quality-status-pedigree." Italian frames, have it, not so much with Japanese frames. I gave several reasons, which were summarily dismissed.
Although I'm still waiting to hear about a world-class Japanese road racing frame that has been in continuous production for over 70 years. Please, enlighten me. Maybe there is one and I've just never heard of it.
Although I'm still waiting to hear about a world-class Japanese road racing frame that has been in continuous production for over 70 years. Please, enlighten me. Maybe there is one and I've just never heard of it.
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Here is an article comparing the quality of the Cinelli SCs you are citing as an example vs a bike model Cinelli made/contracted/? for a Japanese/US brand vs the company's bikes made in Japan. It appears that Cinelli's own bikes might have been the worst quailty of the 3.
https://velospace.org/node/13301
https://velospace.org/node/13301
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Speaking of mystique, placebo, legend, etc, I have a great story about it for the golfers out there. It involves giving a high handicap duffer a Mizuno MP 14 to hit some shots with. Great story, but you have to follow golf to get anything out of it.
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I imagine every bike geek here has some sort of list regarding favorite bikes. The criteria for forming the list for each of us is different. I would not expect anyone to have the same list as me. That does not make my list not valid. I appreciate the diverse openings.
The list for today:
3rensho
Fuso
The list for today:
3rensho
Fuso
#64
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Here is an article comparing the quality of the Cinelli SCs you are citing as an example vs a bike model Cinelli made/contracted/? for a Japanese/US brand vs the company's bikes made in Japan. It appears that Cinelli's own bikes might have been the worst quailty of the 3.
Many posts state those wannabe Cinellis weren't made in Japan. It appears that is a question...with folks on that thread leaning toward NOT made in Japan, but made in Italy?
Cyclart says," The bad news is; the frame was not made by Cinelli, and we will never decal one as such. The good news is; on a side by side comparison, especially with the paint off, the Centurion is lighter and considerably better crafted than Cinellis of that era. Very nice frames!" (And by "that era," we're talking 5 years before my frame was made--there are no file marks on my chromed lugs). So, there are other nice Italian frames? Who knew?
I'm not sure where the discussion of the Equipe/Cinelli leads us. The consensus seems that while it isn't a Cinelli, it's likely Italian, and probably isn't Japanese.
Last edited by smd4; 10-12-22 at 11:37 AM.
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And yet...several people in that thread mention how people have been painting up those Equipe frames to appear as Supercorsas? I wonder why?
Many posts state those wannabe Cinellis weren't made in Japan. It appears that is a question...with folks on that thread leaning toward NOT made in Japan, but made in Italy?
Cyclart says," The bad news is; the frame was not made by Cinelli, and we will never decal one as such. The good news is; on a side by side comparison, especially with the paint off, the Centurion is lighter and considerably better crafted than Cinellis of that era. Very nice frames!" (And by "that era," we're talking 5 years before my frame was made--there are no file marks on my chromed lugs). So, there are other nice Italian frames? Who knew?
I'm not sure where the discussion of Equipe/Cinelli leads us. The consensus seems that while it isn't a Cinelli, it's likely Italian, and probably isn't Japanese.
Many posts state those wannabe Cinellis weren't made in Japan. It appears that is a question...with folks on that thread leaning toward NOT made in Japan, but made in Italy?
Cyclart says," The bad news is; the frame was not made by Cinelli, and we will never decal one as such. The good news is; on a side by side comparison, especially with the paint off, the Centurion is lighter and considerably better crafted than Cinellis of that era. Very nice frames!" (And by "that era," we're talking 5 years before my frame was made--there are no file marks on my chromed lugs). So, there are other nice Italian frames? Who knew?
I'm not sure where the discussion of Equipe/Cinelli leads us. The consensus seems that while it isn't a Cinelli, it's likely Italian, and probably isn't Japanese.
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 10-12-22 at 12:04 PM.
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And yet...several people in that thread mention how people have been painting up those Equipe frames to appear as Supercorsas? I wonder why?
Many posts state those wannabe Cinellis weren't made in Japan. It appears that is a question...with folks on that thread leaning toward NOT made in Japan, but made in Italy?
Cyclart says," The bad news is; the frame was not made by Cinelli, and we will never decal one as such. The good news is; on a side by side comparison, especially with the paint off, the Centurion is lighter and considerably better crafted than Cinellis of that era. Very nice frames!" (And by "that era," we're talking 5 years before my frame was made--there are no file marks on my chromed lugs). So, there are other nice Italian frames? Who knew?
I'm not sure where the discussion of the Equipe/Cinelli leads us. The consensus seems that while it isn't a Cinelli, it's likely Italian, and probably isn't Japanese.
Many posts state those wannabe Cinellis weren't made in Japan. It appears that is a question...with folks on that thread leaning toward NOT made in Japan, but made in Italy?
Cyclart says," The bad news is; the frame was not made by Cinelli, and we will never decal one as such. The good news is; on a side by side comparison, especially with the paint off, the Centurion is lighter and considerably better crafted than Cinellis of that era. Very nice frames!" (And by "that era," we're talking 5 years before my frame was made--there are no file marks on my chromed lugs). So, there are other nice Italian frames? Who knew?
I'm not sure where the discussion of the Equipe/Cinelli leads us. The consensus seems that while it isn't a Cinelli, it's likely Italian, and probably isn't Japanese.
#67
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The Japanese make great frames. My first "good" bike was a Centurion, and I lusted after the 1985 Dura-Ace equipped Prestige--still probably the best-looking bike I've ever seen.
That said, the subject of this thread asks what are the Japanese equivalents of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi in terms of quality-status-pedigree.
We know the quality is there. But status and pedigree? I don't think any Japanese bike can yet measure up to many of the Italian marquees in these categories.
That said, the subject of this thread asks what are the Japanese equivalents of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi in terms of quality-status-pedigree.
We know the quality is there. But status and pedigree? I don't think any Japanese bike can yet measure up to many of the Italian marquees in these categories.
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The Japanese make great frames. My first "good" bike was a Centurion, and I lusted after the 1985 Dura-Ace equipped Prestige--still probably the best-looking bike I've ever seen.
That said, the subject of this thread asks what are the Japanese equivalents of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi in terms of quality-status-pedigree.
We know the quality is there. But status and pedigree? I don't think any Japanese bike can yet measure up to many of the Italian marquees in these categories.
That said, the subject of this thread asks what are the Japanese equivalents of Colnago/Cinelli/Masi in terms of quality-status-pedigree.
We know the quality is there. But status and pedigree? I don't think any Japanese bike can yet measure up to many of the Italian marquees in these categories.
BTW, I have an 85 Prestige. Rides about like the rest of the bikes in my stable. And the Dura Ace 7400, you either love it or don't. Built for one purpose. Not very versitale and doesn't really work with anything else.
Which brings us to my 72 Condor. Every bit the pedigree/mystique of the Cinelli SC you covet, but English. You know what, it rides about like the 85 Prestige and the rest of the bikes in my stable.
Last edited by seypat; 10-12-22 at 12:28 PM.
#69
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There's a reason the Italian bikes have the cache they do. Nostalgia? Too simplistic. Somewhere along the line, they earned their reputation. In later years, did they rest on those laurels? Maybe. But like it or not, most of the folks into C&V road racing bikes would probably rather own an Italian brand than any of the others combined.
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This endless quibbling is a blemish on an otherwise interesting thread.
smd4 has his reasons for thinking his Cinelli is an apex bicycle to which no Japanese bike can hold a candle. Many of us may not agree with his reasons or even understand them, but that's ok. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind here.
"My bike is better than your bike" doesn't leave much room for interesting discussion.
Me, I'll take a Nagasawa road frame in 60 or 61cm please!
Brent
smd4 has his reasons for thinking his Cinelli is an apex bicycle to which no Japanese bike can hold a candle. Many of us may not agree with his reasons or even understand them, but that's ok. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind here.
"My bike is better than your bike" doesn't leave much room for interesting discussion.
Me, I'll take a Nagasawa road frame in 60 or 61cm please!
Brent
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