$1,000 derailleur system with 1930's technology
#101
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#102
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It's an interesting example of how online reputation & marketing develops - I feel like (lately at least, I'm relatively new to all of this) Peterson/Riv evoke such a wildly different set of responses from people than Heine, despite there being so many similarities between the companies. People just seem to not like Heine (or at least, not like how he holds himself out publicly).
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...I just now realized that if you don't need or want the stupid indexing stops, you could probably save 300 bucks and set this up with a simple friction shifter from olden days. And for the front, just go with a rod actuated push one. Saving money and reliving technology are two of my hobbies..
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#104
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It's an interesting example of how online reputation & marketing develops - I feel like (lately at least, I'm relatively new to all of this) Peterson/Riv evoke such a wildly different set of responses from people than Heine, despite there being so many similarities between the companies. People just seem to not like Heine (or at least, not like how he holds himself out publicly).
The internet dunks on Jan no matter what he does, he announces his colab with Open and people complain that he's supposed to be old school and steel, he announces old school and people complain because it's not modern.
Grant builds bikes for his "unracer" niche and people complain about just about everything from the stem to friction shifting.
IMHO what people are really complaining about in both cases is they charge modern racing bike prices for stuff that's not modern racing bike stuff.
There was a great quote on redddit that went something like "this derailleur is for people that buy Paul components un-ironically". I'm not all that interested in bang for the buck but I'm greatly interested in things that make me want to look at my bike or look back at my bike as I'm walking away this fits that bill and will shift modern cassettes.
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"Desmodromic" actuation:
https://www.renehersecycles.com/my-p...e-derailleurs/
https://www.renehersecycles.com/my-p...e-derailleurs/
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Like many things, it's a bit out of my cheapskate price range, but it is pretty cool - and seems a worthy homage and just the ornament to put on a high-end, pseudo-retro throwback bicycle.
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#108
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To my mind, the dropout is a necessary part of the system with a chainstay-mounted rear derailleur. As you can see, the chain wraps way around the cog. Anyone who's ever had to remove a wheel with this kind of system sans chainrest knows that it involves touching the chain - quite a bit, in fact.
Simplex derailleur with single cable and spring return
This is a different design than Nivex, but all of that chain wraparound makes it a pain in the rear to take the rear wheel on and off.
And if you think that was different, here's a SunTour S-1 derailleur bit brazed onto a chainstay for @rhm
Lookit that DIY jig I made! It's actually pretty accurate, I used my flat table to check parallelism and met the spec'ed offset from the dropout.
SunTour realized that wheel removal would be an issue, so they included this little piece to hang your chain on when removing the rear wheel:
Bolts onto the old derailleur hanger. Yes, I modified the position this, but that's another story.
Price is high due to very low volume. If Jan could sell 10's of thousands of these it would be a quarter of less of the cost.
I think the biggest issue is needing to modify a frame to bolt it on. If you dig a bit deeper you'll find a $139 jig to accurately place the attachment bit. I couldn't find any spec's for the location to make my own, so one is stuck with having to purchase the jig.
Just noticed that the pullies appear to be 3D printed - if you look closely you'll see what looks like "sedimentary" layers, typical for the layer by layer 3D printing process.
If Jan had enough "mad money" for this passion project, it could be worth it as a marketing ploy. It's his business. And right now his initial run appears to be sold out. I have no idea how many he sold, or what his break even point is.
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#109
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I think the biggest issue is needing to modify a frame to bolt it on.
#110
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In what way is this thing superior to what we have?
It looks to be a real "Rube Goldberg" mechanism with several parts that look to be seriously vulnerable to damage (weak items & totally exposed).
You have to modify your frame to use it.
It requires two cables, not one.
The idea that the shifting is "more sensitive" is balderdash (to me).
Don't get me wrong, I think it is a cool toy.
I am in way convinced to switch nor that it is "better". Please explain.
It looks to be a real "Rube Goldberg" mechanism with several parts that look to be seriously vulnerable to damage (weak items & totally exposed).
You have to modify your frame to use it.
It requires two cables, not one.
The idea that the shifting is "more sensitive" is balderdash (to me).
Don't get me wrong, I think it is a cool toy.
I am in way convinced to switch nor that it is "better". Please explain.
#111
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Probably too flexible, and prone to slipping. For someone spending a grand for a rear derailleur and shift lever I would think brazing on a chainstay bit wouldn't phase them a bit.
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#112
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As much as obscenely expensive, oddball pieces are totally my bag, that sort of thing is not my bag, baby.
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It requires two cables, not one. The idea the shifting is "more sensitive" is balderdash (to me).
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One thing I don't understand is the "self-trimming" fd, where chainrub moves the front derailleur back to a centered position. Having no experience with this old-timey device myself, is this true? And how long does it take? I can't stand to hear the chain rubbing on the front derailleur for any amount of time.
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One thing I don't understand is the "self-trimming" fd, where chainrub moves the front derailleur back to a centered position. Having no experience with this old-timey device myself, is this true? And how long does it take? I can't stand to hear the chain rubbing on the front derailleur for any amount of time.
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Quite the gestation period.
when I see it I think Paul Components family styling.
there was probably a serious amount of time to develop. I am not the market, so the price is of no concern.
and I was going to look last weekend at a SchwinnHybrid with A Suntour S-1 - it also requires a special mount scheme. The cheap cousin.
when I see it I think Paul Components family styling.
there was probably a serious amount of time to develop. I am not the market, so the price is of no concern.
and I was going to look last weekend at a SchwinnHybrid with A Suntour S-1 - it also requires a special mount scheme. The cheap cousin.
#118
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Dahon Neos chainstay-mounted 'shadow' derailleur:
"Art thou officer? Or art thou base, common and popular?" - Henry V, Act 4, Scene 1
"Art thou officer? Or art thou base, common and popular?" - Henry V, Act 4, Scene 1
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Yeah, that there is a Nivex dropout, as I know it, although you are right that it's a Le Cyclo derailleur. I just wanted to illustrate a point, which is that chainstay-mounted derailleurs work best with a chainrest dropout. Doesn't matter if it's a Nivex or a Le Cyclo, you can't pivot the derailleur back to get the chain around the axle poking out. They are a pain if you want to remove the wheel, and I believe it's short-sighted not to try and develop a chainrest. As I said, I even thought about doing it for my own Trek even though it shifts with a Shimano XTR M952!
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#120
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In the "immortal" words of another passionate cycle industry creator who, among his Don Quixote-like obsessions, is also having a go at the weird niche derailleur market because he wants to, not because he thinks it will set the world on fire or to please the BF naysayers, perhaps we should "Just Ride."
And to anticipate: No, this is not meant as a slam at either of them. Just some light-hearted banter poking very gentle fun at two gents who like to live on the road less traveled. I'm glad they both are in the bicycle industry. The fact that I have zero intention of buying a Hunqapilar or a Neo-Nivex does not change that. They have both had a positive impact on our little corner of the world. I hope Mr. Henne sells a bunch of these things, just as I hope Mr. Petersen sells a bunch of his "Hillibikes" even though I will not be one of the buyers.
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#121
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Yeah, that there is a Nivex dropout, as I know it, although you are right that it's a Le Cyclo derailleur. I just wanted to illustrate a point, which is that chainstay-mounted derailleurs work best with a chainrest dropout. Doesn't matter if it's a Nivex or a Le Cyclo, you can't pivot the derailleur back to get the chain around the axle poking out. They are a pain if you want to remove the wheel, and I believe it's short-sighted not to try and develop a chainrest. As I said, I even thought about doing it for my own Trek even though it shifts with a Shimano XTR M952!
I was poking through my BQ archives, and found an article in BQ14 titled "Riding with Classic Derailleurs - Pt 1 - Cyclotouring rear derailleurs".
It includes an illustration and a photo showing the chain rest....
It's not clear to me whether the chainrest takes up some space, similar to the porta catena, and thus requires a narrower freewheel. If so, I could see where that could be an issue if someone was planning to use standard spaced freewheels or cassettes. Although, given the degree of specialization of the derailleur, finding a suitable freewheel wouldn't be that much more effort or expense.
That's definitely an interesting detail, and I'll have to go back and read that article all the way through now.
Steve in Peoria
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#122
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okay, I appreciate the clarification!
I was poking through my BQ archives, and found an article in BQ14 titled "Riding with Classic Derailleurs - Pt 1 - Cyclotouring rear derailleurs".
It includes an illustration and a photo showing the chain rest....
It's not clear to me whether the chainrest takes up some space, similar to the porta catena, and thus requires a narrower freewheel. If so, I could see where that could be an issue if someone was planning to use standard spaced freewheels or cassettes. Although, given the degree of specialization of the derailleur, finding a suitable freewheel wouldn't be that much more effort or expense.
That's definitely an interesting detail, and I'll have to go back and read that article all the way through now.
Steve in Peoria
I was poking through my BQ archives, and found an article in BQ14 titled "Riding with Classic Derailleurs - Pt 1 - Cyclotouring rear derailleurs".
It includes an illustration and a photo showing the chain rest....
It's not clear to me whether the chainrest takes up some space, similar to the porta catena, and thus requires a narrower freewheel. If so, I could see where that could be an issue if someone was planning to use standard spaced freewheels or cassettes. Although, given the degree of specialization of the derailleur, finding a suitable freewheel wouldn't be that much more effort or expense.
That's definitely an interesting detail, and I'll have to go back and read that article all the way through now.
Steve in Peoria
You could design the dropout such that you wouldn't need a longer axle than normal. Just make the dropout protrude inboard a bit more, beneath the chainrest rail. You spread the frame for standard road or mountain spacing between this protruded part of the dropout and the left dropout, and thus standard freewheel or cassette width. The extra width would be in the frame, not the wheel. Yes, the right stays are going to go farther outboard than the left, but there's no law against this. The bike is sort of spaced asymmetrically to accommodate the "extra gear" that the dropout provides, but it's already got custom braze-on for the derailleur, so the dropout and spacing isn't much of a step beyond that. I've spaced bikes' rear triangles asymmetrically before, just to reduce wheel dish. Never had a problem.
You could envision a version of the chainrest that would clamp in a standard dropout. It would be just like the Surly "monkey nuts" dropout spacers, but with a chainrest machined into the inside portion. Would clamp into the dropout with a screw. Easy. There could be different sizes of spacer for different smallest cogs. You could also have a version of dropout that worked like this, in a sort of modular fashion. Again, I think it would play well with through-axles, since the original Nivex system had a sort of half through axle on the right side.
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Last edited by scarlson; 12-13-22 at 11:10 PM.
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#123
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Well, given how nuts the last several years have been, I'm here for the out-there stuff. This rear derailleur is, to my product designer eye, decidedly prettier than a Paul derailleur (or anything they make), even as it shares an aesthetic ethos with Paul Components (due to method of manufacture). That being said, it does not hide its CNC origins either in form or finish, and I wish it did on one or both accounts (both preferably). It and the shifter give off a strong prototype aesthetic, something that polishing or anodization would readily ease, IMO. Or simply perhaps some well-placed radii. Some of the chosen hardware also hurts the 'presentation,' which is one part "could have used something else" and one part "Rene Herse is not Shimano et al in both component history development and expenditure."
I do like the contrasting brass/copper pieces--those help bring visual interest in critical areas. Additionally, this looks like it could be/was assembled by humans and not a million robots employing special jigs. Repairable, rebuildable, modifiable--qualities that I think many of us appreciate.
Jan crafts a riding experience in parts and in whole with his products or those from others that he enjoys. And it looks like he gave a lot of thought to the "What if a particular kind of shifting that I like could be made even better?" I think we all do some 'crafting' in one or many ways. You know mine: beauty, composition, ride/comfort, out-of-saddle characteristics. I understand the day dreaming and the splitting hairs as I do learn and benefit from the endeavor, princess-and-the-pea rider that I am. He decided he had the money and wanted to spend the money and time to do this. And it needs marketing, so he's marketing. Good for him. The derailleur and shifter aren't for me, and it's not because of price (though the price is considerable). I think chainstay mounted derailleurs look cool, but like others have said, tire installment and removal is something to adjust to.
I do like the contrasting brass/copper pieces--those help bring visual interest in critical areas. Additionally, this looks like it could be/was assembled by humans and not a million robots employing special jigs. Repairable, rebuildable, modifiable--qualities that I think many of us appreciate.
Jan crafts a riding experience in parts and in whole with his products or those from others that he enjoys. And it looks like he gave a lot of thought to the "What if a particular kind of shifting that I like could be made even better?" I think we all do some 'crafting' in one or many ways. You know mine: beauty, composition, ride/comfort, out-of-saddle characteristics. I understand the day dreaming and the splitting hairs as I do learn and benefit from the endeavor, princess-and-the-pea rider that I am. He decided he had the money and wanted to spend the money and time to do this. And it needs marketing, so he's marketing. Good for him. The derailleur and shifter aren't for me, and it's not because of price (though the price is considerable). I think chainstay mounted derailleurs look cool, but like others have said, tire installment and removal is something to adjust to.
#124
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If we momentarily put the baggage of price, piecemeal sales tactics, and Heine's marketing aside, it is a genuinely beautiful RD. The downtube shifter possibly even more so.
I'd love to see someone give the RD the high polish treatment. It's nice in satin, but a mirror finish would be striking.
I'm glad the stars aligned for a homage derailer like this to exist, even if it is woefully impractical in terms of price and practicality. But vive la différence in a world dominated by black carbon Soullessmano derailers.
-Kurt
I'd love to see someone give the RD the high polish treatment. It's nice in satin, but a mirror finish would be striking.
I'm glad the stars aligned for a homage derailer like this to exist, even if it is woefully impractical in terms of price and practicality. But vive la différence in a world dominated by black carbon Soullessmano derailers.
-Kurt
I have other things I want my money to go to, but if I saw this outside a coffee shop or whatever, I’d definitely ask the owner to demonstrate, take pictures, be happy for them, etc.
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The only quote I know from the play is “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels.” but realized how as Solomon said there’s nothing new under the sun. And any younger person that asks me (or their parents) I tell them not to enlist. Don’t be somebody else’s useful idiot.