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70's frame ID?

Old 05-10-23, 11:56 AM
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70's frame ID?

Hello friends! I bought this frame locally for the components it had, but being repainted multiple times I have a hard time identifying the frame. Can you guys lend me a helping hand?
For now I concluded that this frame is either french or swiss from the early-mid 70ies, was built with Durifort tubes, accepts 26,8 mm seatposts, has Campagnolo dropouts, 126 mm rear spacing, 35xP1 Sugino BB and French threaded headset, originally it was silver with red pinstriping near the lugs and blue headtube. I bought the bike equipped with Sugino Mighty crankset, Shimano 600 first generation (pre-Arabesque) derailleurs with Unishift levers, Cinelli Milano logo stem and Weinmann brakes.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!









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Old 05-10-23, 11:57 AM
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Old 05-10-23, 12:41 PM
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interesting specimen, I have seen maybe one Mondia before that had the serial number NOT on the LH stay cap, but not much here that suggests Mondia, even an oddball.
Also odd that 26.8 would be correct for metric (Durifort) tubing so please confirm that the ODs of 3 main tubes are in fact even mms (metric) and not Imperial.
The other clues (but not leading to conclusions) that HS is distinctive, seen it before but drawing a blank. (Edit: looks slightly like a Milremo/Andre Bertin product, but just slightly)
The headlugs are too but for some reason I'm thinking they are more like Dutch than Swiss...need to ring a louder bell than they are.

fun to hear from better sleuths, seems like a nice find!
one more question: is the LH seat lug ear actually threaded or is that a loose bolt missing a nut?

Last edited by unworthy1; 05-10-23 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 05-10-23, 12:54 PM
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lug pattern BOCAMA Competition 75 -


(offered both with and without cutouts)

fork crown Vagner PL + -



remains of tubing transfer suggest a set from Ateliers de La Rive, as stated

headset strongly indicative of a CH origin (may be a product from EDCO)

not Allegro, Cilo, Juvela or Mondia

find nothing bearing a close resemblance at the Swiss Bicycles site:

https://www.swissbicycles.com/

one marque which might merit exploration is that of Mairag; do not wish to suggest an identification -

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Switzerland/Mairag.htm

frame appears to have commenced its existence as a one or two down from the top sort of model

possible investigation might be advanced if tubing diameters and threading could be provided


---

addendum:



are you able to make out the marking here on the top of the drive side of the bottom bracket shell? appears to be there in an oval just aft of the braze-on.

-----

Last edited by juvela; 05-10-23 at 01:44 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 05-10-23, 01:27 PM
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"not Allegro, Cilo or Mondia" as Juvela says, this does not visually align with any of the "Big 3" Swiss marques, but to me that 6-digit serial number in that location is more like a Mondia (or Juvela) than the other 2, but no cigar.

And don't know that any Swiss brands ever used Durifort tubing, mostly 531 and later some went to Columbus.

I haven't seen much of any Tigras but now I wonder...
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Old 05-10-23, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
interesting specimen, I have seen maybe one Mondia before that had the serial number NOT on the LH stay cap, but not much here that suggests Mondia, even an oddball.
Also odd that 26.8 would be correct for metric (Durifort) tubing so please confirm that the ODs of 3 main tubes are in fact even mms (metric) and not Imperial.
The other clues (but not leading to conclusions) that HS is distinctive, seen it before but drawing a blank. (Edit: looks slightly like a Milremo/Andre Bertin product, but just slightly)
The headlugs are too but for some reason I'm thinking they are more like Dutch than Swiss...need to ring a louder bell than they are.

fun to hear from better sleuths, seems like a nice find!
one more question: is the LH seat lug ear actually threaded or is that a loose bolt missing a nut?
ST and DT are 28,6 mm and TT is 26,8 might have to re-check tomorrow, it's night here and couldn't read calipers 100% precisely.
The HS is sitting in a paint thinner bath until tomorrow after work, will do some photos then. I judged it to be french by the washer between the upper cup and the tightening nut, but might be wrong as the Cinelli stem is 22.2 mm so the steerer shouldn't be french, will measure tomorrow.
The seat lug ear is not threaded, it is a simple bolt missing a nut.
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Old 05-10-23, 01:48 PM
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love the patina. Wouldn't change a thing….except maybe stopping by the local ACE hardware store and buying some slanted mailbox letters to spell out COLNAGO. Perfect.
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Old 05-10-23, 01:48 PM
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well it's getting "interesting"!
if this has Imperial standard (FR brand) tubing and steerer but a FR or Swiss BB shell...BCM lugs and perhaps an Edco HS...
I'm officially stumped!
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Old 05-10-23, 01:57 PM
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-----

26.8mm O.D. for top tube may be incorrect

on a metric tube set this tube would be 26.0mm O.D. and on a BSC tube set this tube would be 25.4mm O.D.

if you disassemble HS it shall give opportunity to examine interior of head tube to see if there is evidence of fastener holes being filled in

from down tube and seat tube measurements it sounds like tubeset is BSC

the combination of BSC dimension tubeset, Ateliers de La Rive tubing and the HS is suggestive of a Belgian origin for the frame

perhaps some of our low countries experts shall be able to comment...

fabiofarelli Italuminium JaccoW LucasHartong non-fixie




---

addition -

if, for example, frame produced by one of the hundreds of cottage industry framebuilders in flanderland for the private label house brand of a retail cycle shop it may be unlikely to ever determine a specific producer.

OTOH one simple check which could be made is that of shell width. a measurement of seventy mm rather than the sixty-eight mm one might expect for a BSC shell would tend to indicate the maker Flandria. this maker placed long numerals only serials into the left side of the seat lug. here is an example constructed with a BOCAMA lug pattern paired with a MAEDA ends set -



does fork have a flatted (keyed) steerer with keying at front? this is a Flandria trait.
here you can see the steerer top of the same frame as seen in the above image -


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Last edited by juvela; 05-10-23 at 04:14 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 05-10-23, 03:27 PM
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The way that serial number is presented on the seat lug is something I have seen before, but I am pretty sure it wasn't on a Belgian bike.
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Old 05-11-23, 04:55 AM
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I think this is a mid-70s Mondia (maybe 1976?). There were a good number of their frames with serial numbers stamped on the non-drive side of the seat lug. Not sure if this was because the seat stay caps were too small to fit the whole number (vs the semi wraparound stays that had more real estate)?




I don't know who made that headset either, but it does show up on a lot of Mondias of that period.




There used be a Mondia Special "Hobby" model that looked very similar to this mystery frame (Durifort tubing, matching headset and fork crown, campagnolo dropouts, same seat stay caps, serial number on the non-drive side of seat lug), although the only examples I've seen were built with a different set of Bocama lugs. Mondia did use the Bocama lugs like the ones on the mystery frame, too.




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Old 05-11-23, 10:17 AM
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^I'm convinced^
I had never seen pix of this sort of Mondia (besides the far more common with serial numbers on the semi-wrap stay cap) and certainly never seen one built with Durifort tubing...but now we have!
Thanks for the education, again, MauriceMoss!
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Old 05-11-23, 03:20 PM
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I have measured the BB shell, it is 68 mm wide, the fork tube is 25 mm, but the inside seems to be tapered up to a point, hence accepting the 22.2 mm stem I bought it with. I partially cleaned the HS (sorry, no photos yet), it seems to be an older version of Edco headsets.
MauriceMoss proves a great point here, the clues so far point towards a Mondia frame with the Edco headset, Bocama lugs, and SN on left side of the seattube joint, one of the pictures even has the same color scheme - silver paint with blue headtube and red pinstriping (but with different lugs).
I will try removing the red and black paint and restore the original finish, maybe apply clear coat to seal the exposed steel, but it is big pain in the butt, wouldn't go for the repaint route as it would be a bit over the top.
Thank you everybody for your help, you're all great!
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Old 05-11-23, 05:15 PM
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-----

Our DCI Moss knocks yet another one clean out the ball park for a grand slam!

the rest of us are just fumbling about in the dark without him

---

with the Hobby model posted by Maurice you have the locations of the transfers

should you wish you could have a go at removing the paint in the spots where it looks like transfers may abide

suggest beginning with non-acetone nail varnish remover available at any drug store as it is the gentleist

much like @unworthy1 did not recall ever seeing a Mondia example with its serial in this position...

after reading Maurice's post recalled a thread we had here at the forum a few year back where the fame did not have its serial on the seat stay cap

went back there just now and found that frame did not have a serial in either spot

unfortunately, the subject of a serial was never discussed with owner/poster of the bike

it is transferred as a "Special" (only) but is similar to the "Hobby" in that it appears lower on the totem pole than the Special models we received here in the U.S. during the boom

readers may care to have a look for comparison purposes..

gave it an estimated date as being betwixt seventy-four and seventy-seven

​​​​​​Mondia Special

-----
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Old 05-12-23, 06:24 PM
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Agreed, DCI Moss solves another mystery masterfully!
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Old 05-12-23, 11:08 PM
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Headset is an edco. Will be surprised if it isn't.

Last edited by gbi; 05-12-23 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 05-13-23, 11:21 AM
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Scraped away some more paint, found rhe remnants of a headbadge.
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Old 05-13-23, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dbalu
Scraped away some more paint, found rhe remnants of a headbadge.

-----

Thank you!

Wonder if perhaps it could have read PANHARD.

---

HS -





-----
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Old 05-14-23, 02:13 AM
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Just adding to what juvela posted - this is a 1954 EDCO flyer that appears to show a headset very close to the one in question (possibly an earlier version?):

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Old 05-14-23, 02:19 AM
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Don't have a match for that head tube sticker, but I think it's an early version of stickers for a shop called LIENHARD Fahrrad Werkstatt located in Embrach (canton of Zürich). It looks like the shop closed around 2017/2018.

Here is the last version of their logo. The font used for the name seems to be the same as on the head tube decal:

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Old 05-14-23, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mauricemoss


don't have a match for that head tube sticker, but i think it's an early version of stickers for a shop called lienhard fahrrad werkstatt located in embrach (canton of zürich). It looks like the shop closed around 2017/2018.

Here is the last version of their logo. The font used for the name seems to be the same as on the head tube decal:


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Last edited by juvela; 05-14-23 at 09:41 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 05-14-23, 12:57 PM
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^ Yeah ^ another feather in the cap of Mr. Moss! I was pondering whether Panhard ever made cycles (the cars were obscure enough but at least I had seen ONE of those in my youth) and also wondering if the lowest line on that decal said "Zurich"...while Maurice made this master class graphic, with notes, arrows and visual ref.
It's amazing!
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