Schlafen

Lol, you mean I can't tell someone that you can use a digger to dig a hole just because they spent their entire life digging holes with a shovel?

I've only pointed out where 3d printing is today, bicycle parts are absolutely basic to 3d print in comparison to multi layer PCB boards for example and these are available today, give it another 5 years and check again.

Metal 3d printing WILL be cheaper and accessible in the future because of the sheer amount of investment into the technology, also because AI can optimise the process when integrated into manufacturing.

In the frame buikding industry, frame components are very common, Sturdy Cycles has been building bikes with 3d printed Ti for years now, same as No.22 and many more.

I your phone runs out of battery is it your fault or the phone's fault?

You'd be surprised how many people actually own 3d printers, maybe not as many metal 3d printers, yet, but they're out there, in all fairness I haven't mentioned anything about owning a printer just the fact that we have access to them even today.

Germany_chris

Walter Sorrells a knife maker did a video about tech in knife making late this winter where he said the a metal 3d printer for his shop was 100k in 2019 now he can get one for 30k and she’s would be production quality not hobbiest.

I’m very sure he’s not thinking of building huge pieces but we’re not talking big stuff for a bike either.

cudak888 

Yes, iab already proved the point that it's not only cheaper, it's pretty darn accurate now.

No need to belabor the point; he already proved it.

-Kurt

mschwett 

ok, please help us understand then! does the photo show a part that's been in use for a long time? or did you select a finishing option after the initial quote? i have never seen an unfinished 3d printed part which displays the features noted below. i'm not doubting that it couldn't be finished to look like that, but the price reflected above is before any finishing options are selected. when i added polishing to my test case (which started closer to your cost) it doubled the price, as i'd expect. the photo clearly shows a "glossy" part, with bright reflections.

nice model, btw! very clean. i've 3d printed a lot of little bike accessories, but always out of various plastics because the cost for metal has been prohibitive in the past, and i also don't use chinese printers. but to each their own.

SkinGriz

My aunt does some sort of machine shop QC for Boeing.

She says she has a machine where she puts a part in the machine and it creates the drawings for the part.

That was at thanksgiving 10 years ago.

So I don’t see why that technology won’t make it to the public.

Atlas Shrugged

I completely agree that the future will increasingly include 3D printed parts. This went off rails when a certain poster insisted we are there at present and presented what was obviously a highly finished lug and claimed it was $23 as shown. Insults quickly followed.

squirtdad

I have learned never say never i.e some people with hand strength issues or constant riding in the rain may benefit and I might be there some day

but for me now dual pivot give me every thing is need

squirtdad

My thinking on mechanical parts is that they will be available, new, from smaller specialized builders, likely more high end and expensive and not always traditional looking

thing Rivendel, Paul, Rene Herse, Ingrid, velo orange

I think electronic shifting will end up going even into big box store BSO in 5 years or less...simply because the cost will get so low it will be cheaper to build than to run cables

it would also not surprise me if someone figures out a way to build replicas of classic parts that are no longer patent protected, via 3d printing and cnc. again at a cost

unterhausen

This is a moderator note plus a personal comment: that lug is really nice and I can't believe people are still going on about it. It's true that iab finished it himself, and I understand from gugie's flickr that it was a bit laborious. I'm sure if you paid someone to do that it wouldn't be economic. I don't understand why that makes it so controversial. I think the two critics of the lug really need to drop it now, or we're going to start deleting posts and more.

There is a company that makes conversion kits for integrated brake lever/shifters to change which derailleurs they will work with. I'm sure that kind of thing will just continue to be more common.

Calsun

Companies like Shimano need to innovate to maintain their brand and market share against competitors. Some innovations improve performance notably as with brifters and others like electric shifters are marginal at best but do encourage people to buy the latest new item for largely emotional reasons. And in part there is the placebo effect where the person buying the new product believes that it is better and have clouded judgment and will vigorously defend their purchase decision.

The only notable innovations over the past 100 years have been the use of carbon fiber in frames, the move to high performance clincher tires, combo brake and gear shift mechanisms, and tubeless tires. There have been refinements as with Shimano and rear derailleurs and the move to hydraulic disc brakes that make it easier to repair mountain bike tires, but the electronic derailleurs are like putting lipstick on the pig and increase prices while making the component less reliable.

dddd

Near the very beginning of the interview, Grant stated that without the slant parallelogram, indexing wouldn't work.

There have been lots of lower-end bikes built using SIS-adapted versions of the Shimano Lark configuration, having offset top pulley and having a B-pivot spring at the mounting point.

Certain aero-era Dura-Ace rear derailers also incorporated indexing cams inside of their 6-speed rear derailers as early as around 1980.
And Positron also used a non-slanted parallelogram design.

Shimano's servo-panta design easily did what the slanted parallelogram could do, while further increasing chain take-up versus Suntour's single-sprung-pivot designs.
Perhaps this is why their tri-pulley cage was developed.

I can understand why Shimano wanted to incorporate the slanted parallelogram into their first SIS offerings, the better for achieving higher shifting performance levels over a widest-possible range of gearing options and for reducing the need for frequent cable maintenance.
Shimano hadn't yet developed a narrow version of the Uniglide chain by that point, which limited the amount of over-shift in the shifting lever before unwanted contact with the next-larger cog that was being shifted to, but had already developed their excellent (and presumably still patent-protected?) Uniglide cog tooth design (so likely had an easier time meeting high shifting-performance standards than Suntour).

For their part, Suntour curiously avoided using a functional version of Shimano's sprung B-pivot on at least their first few years of indexing rear derailers.
There was a spring in many of them, but which was locked out of allowing any movement by their knuckle-mounted B-tension screw acting directly on the hanger stop.
The sprung pivot therefore only served to pull the derailer rearward while the rear wheel was being removed-installed.
I removed the B-tension screw on some of the 7s Superbe derailers to allow the pivot to function like Shimano's after I also re-tensioned the spring tension balance between the B-pivot and cage-pivot springs. This allowed use of wider-range gearing by increasing the derailer's capacity. I always assumed that some patent was perhaps preventing Suntour from doing the same(?).

I realize I've drifted off-topic with my post here, but all this talk has me primed to get my original pearl-orange 1984(?) Bridgestone "Triathlon Al" 14-speed bike back on the road with fresh tires and cables.

iab

Give me a good reason. It seems everyone in this thread is entirely ignorant of the process I used. And as it turns out, ignorance gives you license to troll without consequence on BF. I made something, it ain't rocket science, why should I hold your hand?

Piff 

As the thread starter, let me apologize for my sins.

The 3-d printing is very interesting, and I can see that becoming a viable option to purchasing 'unobtanium' parts in the future. It is limiting, though. You'd need a working example, for one. And they would have to be static parts that don't require assembly, like derailleurs or brifters. Unless you needed a lone part to fix your mechanical shifting component. I could see cranks, and chainrings being great options for this technology in the future. The number of times I've gone on ebay looking for a specific chainring BCD/tooth count and come up short...

Even among members here though we've seen adoptions of modern tech. Won't this continue into the future? I think the market for a lot of legacy items will continue to shrink and make it difficult for boutique manufacturers to continue to find a viable market. Freewheels have gone the way of the dodo (well, almost there), wouldn't surprise me to see square taper cranks/bottom brackets follow suit in the next 20 years. Ahhhh, except for the track/fixie/touring crowd, quite a few of those folks also like square taper. What I find most odd about the square taper market, is that there are still plenty of very high quality cranks being made, but bottom brackets are not nearly as well supported.

son_of_clyde

Craftcloud quoted me $126.89 for this simple lug:

Hondo6

It depends.

If you forget to charge your cell phone and the battery discharges to the point you can't use your phone, well, that's on you.

However, if you fully charge your cell phone and the phone's battery - which would be reasonably expected to allow the phone to be usable for several hours to a few days when fully charged, depending on how much it's being used - is dead 30 min later after making a 5- or 10-minute call I'd say the phone (as a total system, of which the battery is only one part) has an issue. Whatever the reason, in the second case it hasn't performed consistent with reasonable expectations.

If the SRAM electronic shift unit referenced above is a few years old, IMO this might be a user issue - e.g., a bad battery that needs replacement, a different system issue/defect, or user error. But if that unit is relatively new and the user is charging it properly before riding, then I'd say the fault is with the system's design, implementation, or hardware.

Piff 

Jeez, guys, give it a rest and watch Monk if you're feeling investigatory. I think it's clear that 3-d printing is well on it's way to being a viable option for parts manufacturing. iab may have exaggerated the (low) cost, but the example is sound in concept. Can we all please be adults and move on?

Any thoughts on what I mentioned regarding square taper cranks and bottom brackets? Or do most people think those are safe? Are they still spec'd on lower end hybrids and such, or have external bottom bracket cranks replaced them by now?

Atlas Shrugged

So we are all ignorant and trolls when all we are asking how you and only you was able to get a highly finished and complex lug for $23. Why are all those custom frame builders not smart enough to purchase 3d printed lugs such as yours. Instead the are still filing and modifying stock lugs.

iab

Printing prices are based on print time and material volume. They are somewhat hand in hand. You are also using a German and US printer.

Please compare apples to apples.

iab

Your ignorance is still astounding. Actually, pretty sad.

iab

I'm tired of being called a liar. The printed lug cost $22.47, as originally I wrote. Don't believe it, learn how to model a lug as I posted, use the same print service and then tell me about exaggeration. Until then, keep it to yourself.

Piff 

Yeah...this thread is just about done. Oh well.

iab

I made your part. My quote is $19.63.

unterhausen

I got a similar quote for my lug design that actually takes more material because it's for a 44mm tapered head tube. I'm not sure how the $123 quote was generated, but I think it might be a different material.
And on that note, I'm closing the thread because apparently people didn't read my post.

BillyD

Closed for moderator review.