Has demand dropped?
#126
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I have to disagree with you. This is from a cyclist's point of view. I've had more near accidents with the E-holes in the past year than I've had with automobiles in the 50+ years I've been riding. It is totally ridiculous around here. Throw in the people riding the gas-powered "motorcycles" with no license, registration or insurance, it's getting dangerous.
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#127
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The cost savings of no car are astronomical.
Read a Readers Digest article many years ago.
The average person spends 40% of their life's earnings on personal transportation if they choose to drive a car, I would suspect it may be more now.
More than housing, healthcare or education, by far in many cases.
And no, I'm certainly not advocating efbikes per se but the draw for noncycling folks can be huge for the savings, especially if you lose your license or insurance.
Read a Readers Digest article many years ago.
The average person spends 40% of their life's earnings on personal transportation if they choose to drive a car, I would suspect it may be more now.
More than housing, healthcare or education, by far in many cases.
And no, I'm certainly not advocating efbikes per se but the draw for noncycling folks can be huge for the savings, especially if you lose your license or insurance.
You know, when I first read your post, I was completely inclined to disagree with you. And then I started thinking of someone I know at work that just got a new truck, and hearing that their monthly car payment is $1400. A month!
So yes, It probably is a thing, after all! We have made the decision to buy our vehicles in cash, every time. It means we are priced out of the new and nearly-new car market by a long shot, but we make do and not having a payment that is close to or more than our mortgage is a lovely thing.
Hearing that people easily choose to spend that on a car, or $3000 on an e-bike, really puts into perspective my balking in my own mind about a $100 bike that I think should be $50
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#128
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Even is you disregard the physical longevity of carbon, the fact is, carbon bikes just do not age well at all. There is something aesthetically off-putting.
Secondly, all of these “e-bikes” are destined for the dump when a replacement batter cannot be sourced in the future and those are especially hideous looking frames.
Finally - and this is just anecdotal, but every time I ride into my local bike shop with one of my steel bikes, the employees get super geeked out about the bike even though they are selling all the newest and greatest tech, and I think there always be a market (even amongst the younger set) for truly mechanical and simple bones that are also beautiful to look at.
#129
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You know, when I first read your post, I was completely inclined to disagree with you. And then I started thinking of someone I know at work that just got a new truck, and hearing that their monthly car payment is $1400. A month!
So yes, It probably is a thing, after all! We have made the decision to buy our vehicles in cash, every time. It means we are priced out of the new and nearly-new car market by a long shot, but we make do and not having a payment that is close to or more than our mortgage is a lovely thing.
Hearing that people easily choose to spend that on a car, or $3000 on an e-bike, really puts into perspective my balking in my own mind about a $100 bike that I think should be $50
So yes, It probably is a thing, after all! We have made the decision to buy our vehicles in cash, every time. It means we are priced out of the new and nearly-new car market by a long shot, but we make do and not having a payment that is close to or more than our mortgage is a lovely thing.
Hearing that people easily choose to spend that on a car, or $3000 on an e-bike, really puts into perspective my balking in my own mind about a $100 bike that I think should be $50
I know that being a lifelong and professional mech/tech/hack, etc. have saved us a fortune, coupled with CFO Ms. merziac's impeccable financial acumen, we are far better off than we could/should be.
I am a died in the wool car guy but fully realized a long time ago that I could make and save $$$$$$ working on them instead of trying to impress people with them which as especially you and I know is a fools errand.
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#130
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^^^^^^
Even is you disregard the physical longevity of carbon, the fact is, carbon bikes just do not age well at all. There is something aesthetically off-putting.
Secondly, all of these “e-bikes” are destined for the dump when a replacement batter cannot be sourced in the future and those are especially hideous looking frames.
Finally - and this is just anecdotal, but every time I ride into my local bike shop with one of my steel bikes, the employees get super geeked out about the bike even though they are selling all the newest and greatest tech, and I think there always be a market (even amongst the younger set) for truly mechanical and simple bones that are also beautiful to look at.
Even is you disregard the physical longevity of carbon, the fact is, carbon bikes just do not age well at all. There is something aesthetically off-putting.
Secondly, all of these “e-bikes” are destined for the dump when a replacement batter cannot be sourced in the future and those are especially hideous looking frames.
Finally - and this is just anecdotal, but every time I ride into my local bike shop with one of my steel bikes, the employees get super geeked out about the bike even though they are selling all the newest and greatest tech, and I think there always be a market (even amongst the younger set) for truly mechanical and simple bones that are also beautiful to look at.
Strip mine the whole planet now for the raw materials, nasty, dirty, carbon footprint of them is staggering.
Then wait for the spent ones to catch on fire or contaminate everything in the end, nasty, deadly toxicity is also even more staggering.
They are going to get us coming and going.
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#131
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The Ef batt's will be the death of us all.
Strip mine the whole planet now for the raw materials, nasty, dirty, carbon footprint of them is staggering.
Then wait for the spent ones to catch on fire or contaminate everything in the end, nasty, deadly toxicity is also even more staggering.
They are going to get us coming and going.
Strip mine the whole planet now for the raw materials, nasty, dirty, carbon footprint of them is staggering.
Then wait for the spent ones to catch on fire or contaminate everything in the end, nasty, deadly toxicity is also even more staggering.
They are going to get us coming and going.
Mostly the mines are already in operation extracting minerals already there for all sorts of uses. Batteries are just one thing made. Would you rather they put the lithium back? Where would they put it? Might as well make a battery or 2 before recycling the refined materials it into something else
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I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
#132
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The Ef batt's will be the death of us all.
Strip mine the whole planet now for the raw materials, nasty, dirty, carbon footprint of them is staggering.
Then wait for the spent ones to catch on fire or contaminate everything in the end, nasty, deadly toxicity is also even more staggering.
They are going to get us coming and going.
Strip mine the whole planet now for the raw materials, nasty, dirty, carbon footprint of them is staggering.
Then wait for the spent ones to catch on fire or contaminate everything in the end, nasty, deadly toxicity is also even more staggering.
They are going to get us coming and going.
#133
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Meh.
Mostly the mines are already in operation extracting minerals already there for all sorts of uses. Batteries are just one thing made. Would you rather they put the lithium back? Where would they put it? Might as well make a battery or 2 before recycling the refined materials it into something else
Mostly the mines are already in operation extracting minerals already there for all sorts of uses. Batteries are just one thing made. Would you rather they put the lithium back? Where would they put it? Might as well make a battery or 2 before recycling the refined materials it into something else
The ferocity and zeal they are continuing to ramp up will not go any more well as it escalates, the existing mines are and will not produce the amount needed to try and satiate the greedy soulless companies and stockholders, they will be happy to bury us when we get in the way for not getting on board.
The recycling will not go well either, more dirty, nasty far less profitable work they will not be held accountable for or be made to facilitate let alone truly help with until it benefits and is profitable them.
It needs to be a cradle to grave cycle to cause it to be sustainable as well as profitable, its a runaway train now and we're tied to the tracks.
#134
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^^^^^^
Even is you disregard the physical longevity of carbon, the fact is, carbon bikes just do not age well at all. There is something aesthetically off-putting.
Secondly, all of these “e-bikes” are destined for the dump when a replacement batter cannot be sourced in the future and those are especially hideous looking frames.
Finally - and this is just anecdotal, but every time I ride into my local bike shop with one of my steel bikes, the employees get super geeked out about the bike even though they are selling all the newest and greatest tech, and I think there always be a market (even amongst the younger set) for truly mechanical and simple bones that are also beautiful to look at.
Even is you disregard the physical longevity of carbon, the fact is, carbon bikes just do not age well at all. There is something aesthetically off-putting.
Secondly, all of these “e-bikes” are destined for the dump when a replacement batter cannot be sourced in the future and those are especially hideous looking frames.
Finally - and this is just anecdotal, but every time I ride into my local bike shop with one of my steel bikes, the employees get super geeked out about the bike even though they are selling all the newest and greatest tech, and I think there always be a market (even amongst the younger set) for truly mechanical and simple bones that are also beautiful to look at.
#135
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The batteries are improving all the time and are amazing but its still partly from more, better raw materials that there will not be enough of in the long run and are being gobbled up at a huge cost in every way.
#136
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^^^^^^
Even is you disregard the physical longevity of carbon, the fact is, carbon bikes just do not age well at all. There is something aesthetically off-putting.
Secondly, all of these “e-bikes” are destined for the dump when a replacement batter cannot be sourced in the future and those are especially hideous looking frames.
Finally - and this is just anecdotal, but every time I ride into my local bike shop with one of my steel bikes, the employees get super geeked out about the bike even though they are selling all the newest and greatest tech, and I think there always be a market (even amongst the younger set) for truly mechanical and simple bones that are also beautiful to look at.
Even is you disregard the physical longevity of carbon, the fact is, carbon bikes just do not age well at all. There is something aesthetically off-putting.
Secondly, all of these “e-bikes” are destined for the dump when a replacement batter cannot be sourced in the future and those are especially hideous looking frames.
Finally - and this is just anecdotal, but every time I ride into my local bike shop with one of my steel bikes, the employees get super geeked out about the bike even though they are selling all the newest and greatest tech, and I think there always be a market (even amongst the younger set) for truly mechanical and simple bones that are also beautiful to look at.
It also depends on the shop you bring your bike to. I remember stopping at a bike shop in DC once and being rather sharply ridiculed by the "regulars" for going about on a Raleigh 3-speed. After a few pointed jokes at the expense of my bike, they told me to "get a real bike". I never brought my business there again.
Another bike shop close by on the same street treated me a lot better. The owner there was a nice guy and very understanding of old bikes.
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#137
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I was thinking of downsizing the other day. So, I put 30 bikes in my front yard. $1500 Treks, $1000 road bikes, $750 trail bikes, $100 kids bikes. A guy stopped by with his son. The man started at the high end eyeing the Campy stuff. The boy was all over a $500 Mongoose that was perfect. I told him a LBS would ask $250. Since I was no longer in business I wanted $125. Then $100. Later I asked him to make an offer. I had just put two kevlar tires on it ($40), and probably would have sold it for $50 but he drove off and didn't even call.
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#139
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You know, when I first read your post, I was completely inclined to disagree with you. And then I started thinking of someone I know at work that just got a new truck, and hearing that their monthly car payment is $1400. A month!
So yes, It probably is a thing, after all! We have made the decision to buy our vehicles in cash, every time. It means we are priced out of the new and nearly-new car market by a long shot, but we make do and not having a payment that is close to or more than our mortgage is a lovely thing.
Hearing that people easily choose to spend that on a car, or $3000 on an e-bike, really puts into perspective my balking in my own mind about a $100 bike that I think should be $50
So yes, It probably is a thing, after all! We have made the decision to buy our vehicles in cash, every time. It means we are priced out of the new and nearly-new car market by a long shot, but we make do and not having a payment that is close to or more than our mortgage is a lovely thing.
Hearing that people easily choose to spend that on a car, or $3000 on an e-bike, really puts into perspective my balking in my own mind about a $100 bike that I think should be $50
But I'm not upset at all about that....
Back to bikes. Spendy Di2 is great stuff, but man is the cheaper silver stuff still so great. Good thing I can make the money I spent on that back! I like the price of 9- and 10-speed chains.
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#140
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They're improving but are still pretty crude and very labor intensive to recycle, the Fed has mandated more robust and efficient panels so they are better but the cost has gone up of course.
The batteries are improving all the time and are amazing but its still partly from more, better raw materials that there will not be enough of in the long run and are being gobbled up at a huge cost in every way.
The batteries are improving all the time and are amazing but its still partly from more, better raw materials that there will not be enough of in the long run and are being gobbled up at a huge cost in every way.
#141
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Some of the posts here mention the problems with e-bikes and the lack of standardization of components. VanMoof in Denmark just went bankrupt. They designed their own components, which now leaves VanMoof owners stranded when they break. Who needs that?
Last edited by cycleheimer; 09-04-23 at 04:45 PM.
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#144
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This thread is jumping around a bit but its a good topic and where dealers should be listening.
Couple of things, and thinking about these dealers. Fly on the bus to a major show convention for bike dealers / industry: Entire talk was about what makers have the best motors and watts. Zero about the market or pedal bikes.
What's been driving the E bike sales in the US is buyers tax credits.
BTW: If you recall the proposed tariff on imported e-bikes, it didn't happen because there's no e-bikes made in US, so where's the competition debate? Lol. Virtually all e-bikes are Asian made, by far the most made in China.
E bike users on the city are already weaning off them. Apartment , condo regs are banning. Vandalism, almost zero replacement parts let alone find a dealer capable of repairing. Frustration especially after paying the high cost for these bikes.
Society: Major metropolitan areas with investments in beautiful hiking and biking trail systems, network into city, suburbs to state and county parks. The use of them is way under utilized / percentage of users for its population. Its so bad in one collar county of Chicago, they just introduced a promo of earning a medallion for completion on walking its trails.
Lastly, I recently offered to gift a really nice, upper end model all chrome mid-school BMX to a nephew. He has zero interest and no desire to ride a bike. Kid is glued to his phone.
Couple of things, and thinking about these dealers. Fly on the bus to a major show convention for bike dealers / industry: Entire talk was about what makers have the best motors and watts. Zero about the market or pedal bikes.
What's been driving the E bike sales in the US is buyers tax credits.
BTW: If you recall the proposed tariff on imported e-bikes, it didn't happen because there's no e-bikes made in US, so where's the competition debate? Lol. Virtually all e-bikes are Asian made, by far the most made in China.
E bike users on the city are already weaning off them. Apartment , condo regs are banning. Vandalism, almost zero replacement parts let alone find a dealer capable of repairing. Frustration especially after paying the high cost for these bikes.
Society: Major metropolitan areas with investments in beautiful hiking and biking trail systems, network into city, suburbs to state and county parks. The use of them is way under utilized / percentage of users for its population. Its so bad in one collar county of Chicago, they just introduced a promo of earning a medallion for completion on walking its trails.
Lastly, I recently offered to gift a really nice, upper end model all chrome mid-school BMX to a nephew. He has zero interest and no desire to ride a bike. Kid is glued to his phone.
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#145
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This thread is jumping around a bit but its a good topic and where dealers should be listening.
Couple of things, and thinking about these dealers. Fly on the bus to a major show convention for bike dealers / industry: Entire talk was about what makers have the best motors and watts. Zero about the market or pedal bikes.
What's been driving the E bike sales in the US is buyers tax credits.
BTW: If you recall the proposed tariff on imported e-bikes, it didn't happen because there's no e-bikes made in US, so where's the competition debate? Lol. Virtually all e-bikes are Asian made, by far the most made in China.
E bike users on the city are already weaning off them. Apartment , condo regs are banning. Vandalism, almost zero replacement parts let alone find a dealer capable of repairing. Frustration especially after paying the high cost for these bikes.
Society: Major metropolitan areas with investments in beautiful hiking and biking trail systems, network into city, suburbs to state and county parks. The use of them is way under utilized / percentage of users for its population. Its so bad in one collar county of Chicago, they just introduced a promo of earning a medallion for completion on walking its trails.
Lastly, I recently offered to gift a really nice, upper end model all chrome mid-school BMX to a nephew. He has zero interest and no desire to ride a bike. Kid is glued to his phone.
Couple of things, and thinking about these dealers. Fly on the bus to a major show convention for bike dealers / industry: Entire talk was about what makers have the best motors and watts. Zero about the market or pedal bikes.
What's been driving the E bike sales in the US is buyers tax credits.
BTW: If you recall the proposed tariff on imported e-bikes, it didn't happen because there's no e-bikes made in US, so where's the competition debate? Lol. Virtually all e-bikes are Asian made, by far the most made in China.
E bike users on the city are already weaning off them. Apartment , condo regs are banning. Vandalism, almost zero replacement parts let alone find a dealer capable of repairing. Frustration especially after paying the high cost for these bikes.
Society: Major metropolitan areas with investments in beautiful hiking and biking trail systems, network into city, suburbs to state and county parks. The use of them is way under utilized / percentage of users for its population. Its so bad in one collar county of Chicago, they just introduced a promo of earning a medallion for completion on walking its trails.
Lastly, I recently offered to gift a really nice, upper end model all chrome mid-school BMX to a nephew. He has zero interest and no desire to ride a bike. Kid is glued to his phone.
It sucks we have to even consider e-bikes in a C&V forum, but they are really impacting the future not only for C&V bikes, but even new analog bikes.
The most carbon neutral form of transportation (if policy makers and politicians cared) as well as adding benefit to the health of the population are used mechanical bikes. But tax credits for buying used bikes would not propagate fly-by-night e-bike manufacturers and retailers who most likely will be long gone once these contraptions need repairs or replacement parts.
However, and maybe this is only solace for those of us who are younger and just really getting into this, but if this demand shift is really the start of a long-term decline, it bodes well for those of us just entering the accumulation phase.
Last edited by Het Volk; 09-04-23 at 12:15 PM.
#146
Full Member
VanMoof was bought out:
https://www.theverge.com/23822598/va...-lavoie-bought
https://www.theverge.com/23822598/va...-lavoie-bought
it very well could be that they were able to discharge most liabilities including any customer prepayments and or any warranty obligations, while getting all the rights to the patents and designs.
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#147
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They have been benefiting from just the profit for too long, especially now that we seem to be at a tipping point in many aspects.
Like I said, cradle to grave, make them responsible for the whole revenue stream including waste and disposal.
Of course they will never sit still for that but moving forward the tech could be tied down if we really wanted to.
#148
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VanMoof
And also - I know bikes all eventually need servicing, but outside of a new tire, chain, bar tape and brake pads (and replacement cleats for shoes) none of my bikes have needed spare parts and they are almost all over 10 years since I acquired them.
I really wish there was a way to get it across the general public that adding complexity to a bike does not in fact make them more enjoyable to ride, but in fact make them more frustrating to own.
#149
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And also - I know bikes all eventually need servicing, but outside of a new tire, chain, bar tape and brake pads (and replacement cleats for shoes) none of my bikes have needed spare parts and they are almost all over 10 years since I acquired them.
I really wish there was a way to get it across the general public that adding complexity to a bike does not in fact make them more enjoyable to ride, but in fact make them more frustrating to own.
We should change this thread to “Reasons for Old Men to yell at Clouds”
#150
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Well we obviously can't do that but the fix would be to hold companies, corporations and stockholders fully accountable.
They have been benefiting from just the profit for too long, especially now that we seem to be at a tipping point in many aspects.
Like I said, cradle to grave, make them responsible for the whole revenue stream including waste and disposal.
Of course they will never sit still for that but moving forward the tech could be tied down if we really wanted to.
They have been benefiting from just the profit for too long, especially now that we seem to be at a tipping point in many aspects.
Like I said, cradle to grave, make them responsible for the whole revenue stream including waste and disposal.
Of course they will never sit still for that but moving forward the tech could be tied down if we really wanted to.