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What does the plow tip on Kool Stop cantilever brake pads do?

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What does the plow tip on Kool Stop cantilever brake pads do?

Old 12-09-23, 06:32 PM
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What does the plow tip on Kool Stop cantilever brake pads do?

What is it for exactly?
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Old 12-09-23, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rgvg
What is it for exactly?
Moves larger debris away from the rim and pad so as not to become embedded in the pad and foul the braking surface.
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Old 12-09-23, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac
Moves larger debris away from the rim and pad so as not to become embedded in the pad and foul the braking surface.
Ah .. I never would have thought that. I thought it was there to make sure the pads squeal.
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Old 12-09-23, 07:09 PM
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I thought it was to make toe out easier to adjust...
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Old 12-09-23, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rgvg
Ah .. I never would have thought that. I thought it was there to make sure the pads squeal.
Well, that too but I always dress pads old or new with a course file to avoid that.
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Old 12-09-23, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rgvg
Ah .. I never would have thought that. I thought it was there to make sure the pads squeal.
Nah, that's just a side benefit.
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Old 12-10-23, 07:40 AM
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Not much, and not necessary. I chop the trailing end of smooth post Eagle Claw canti pads, then file the exposed metal frame. Now I have road sized pads that clear the fork blades and stays. There's zero benefit to long pads. Canti pads used to be all road sized, but somewhere in the 80's with the mtb craze someone decided it was a good idea to make them longer and offset. So now your brakes wouldn't open all the way. How silly. I was curious if the Eagle Claws could be shortened and to my surprise the inner metal frame only went to about the last notch in the pad. All that was needed was some utility shears to cut off the rubber end, and then a touch of filing to clear the frame and smooth off the chopped end.
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Old 12-10-23, 09:18 AM
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Old 12-10-23, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Garthr
Not much, and not necessary. I chop the trailing end of smooth post Eagle Claw canti pads, then file the exposed metal frame. Now I have road sized pads that clear the fork blades and stays. There's zero benefit to long pads. Canti pads used to be all road sized, but somewhere in the 80's with the mtb craze someone decided it was a good idea to make them longer and offset. So now your brakes wouldn't open all the way. How silly. I was curious if the Eagle Claws could be shortened and to my surprise the inner metal frame only went to about the last notch in the pad. All that was needed was some utility shears to cut off the rubber end, and then a touch of filing to clear the frame and smooth off the chopped end.
Incorrect, absolutely wrong,

many early canti's were longer for tandems and French touring in the mountains when most brakes were poor at best.

Mafac tandem/touring canti's have 5 dots on the pads and a longer arm for more leverage to make it safer down some of the most dangerous bicycle traveled mountains on the planet.

They were adopted by early MTB's for the same reason, coming down repack melted the brakes of the day and the tandem canti's were the answer at the time.



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Old 12-10-23, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac
Incorrect, absolutely wrong,

many early canti's were longer for tandems and French touring in the mountains when most brakes were poor at best.

Mafac tandem/touring canti's have 5 dots on the pads and a longer arm for more leverage to make it safer down some of the most dangerous bicycle traveled mountains on the planet.

They were adopted by early MTB's for the same reason, coming down repack melted the brakes of the day and the tandem canti's were the answer at the time.
Nice try, but absolutely wrong" my butt. We're talking about Kool Stop Cantilever brake pads and the "tip" here.

Now you're talking about issues with Mafac cantilevers, which are anything but a "standard" of effective cantilevers. The irony is that the Mafac pads for canti's I see have 4 dots and are centered, and of road size. You offer nothing about Kool Stop pads.

My first cantilever were Shimano BR-MC70 on a 1983 Stumpjumper and it had centered, average road sized brake pads. So do the two pairs of SunTour XC Pro canti's I bought in the late 90's. It's only when I went to get replacements did I find the longer and offset shape to the pads. The stock pads worked just fine, so I modified the long KS pads to be of the original size that came with the brake originally. Not exactly earth shattering or provocative... sheesh.

What dangers some wonky French brakes may have had have zero relevance here.
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Old 12-10-23, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Garthr
Nice try, but absolutely wrong" my butt. We're talking about Kool Stop Cantilever brake pads and the "tip" here.

Now you're talking about issues with Mafac cantilevers, which are anything but a "standard" of effective cantilevers. The irony is that the Mafac pads for canti's I see have 4 dots and are centered, and of road size. You offer nothing about Kool Stop pads.

My first cantilever were Shimano BR-MC70 on a 1983 Stumpjumper and it had centered, average road sized brake pads. So do the two pairs of SunTour XC Pro canti's I bought in the late 90's. It's only when I went to get replacements did I find the longer and offset shape to the pads. The stock pads worked just fine, so I modified the long KS pads to be of the original size that came with the brake originally. Not exactly earth shattering or provocative... sheesh.

What dangers some wonky French brakes may have had have zero relevance here.
Yeah, your "butt" is still wrong, the irony is that you don't know the Mafac tandem 5 dots were the standard issue MTB brakes at the beginning, sheesh.

They came on the very first Stumpy's and Ritchey's, most everybody here "butt" you knows that and yes they were quickly abandoned "butt" not before learning from them what was needed to replace them.

We're talking about whatever I say we're talking about and its all about you picking and choosing when you don't know what you're talking about, you don't even address the original question about what the plow is for.

We're talking about brakes and effectiveness, the Mafacs were the best at the time as all brakes were poor, way back in the day and at the beginning of the MTB era.

You stated "There's zero benefit to long pads. Canti pads used to be all road sized and somewhere in the 80's with the mtb craze someone decided it was a good idea to make them longer and offset".

They had been longer for a long time already, since the 50's reportedly.
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Old 12-10-23, 04:18 PM
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Garthr Under hard braking the pads do deflect and the full length of the longer pads make contact with the rim, providing more surface area for friction and dissipation of heat buildup. You might not perceive this but there is a reason they were designed this way, especially for long descents or technical trails.

​I have to say that MAFAC cantilever brakes work quite well for me, just as well as any more modern Shimano or Dia Compe brake. Not sure why you consider them inferior.

Also, I believe merziac was bringing up the MAFAC 5 dot tandem pads to counter your statement that long pads are not beneficial. Not related to the Kool Stop fin.
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Old 12-10-23, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac
Yeah, your "butt" is still wrong, the irony is that you don't know the Mafac tandem 5 dots were the standard issue MTB brakes at the beginning, sheesh.

They came on the very first Stumpy's and Ritchey's, most everybody here "butt" you knows that and yes they were quickly abandoned "butt" not before learning from them what was needed to replace them.

We're talking about whatever I say we're talking about and its all about you picking and choosing when you don't know what you're talking about, you don't even address the original question about what the plow is for.

We're talking about brakes and effectiveness, the Mafacs were the best at the time as all brakes were poor, way back in the day and at the beginning of the MTB era.

You stated "There's zero benefit to long pads. Canti pads used to be all road sized and somewhere in the 80's with the mtb craze someone decided it was a good idea to make them longer and offset".

They had been longer for a long time already, since the 50's reportedly.

Well this is going nowhere but in circles. You know, this is the problem with trying communicate in such a primitive way, and nobody really ever knows what the other is saying and how they mean it. Hell, even face to face it's not much different. I can continue the charade of "who knows more of this, that and the other" and all that jazz, and so effing what ? Nothing good ever comes of it, just more of the same going round and round as Hell on Wheels. King of the Jungle in thine own mind, with a welt on thine head from thine own hand.


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Old 12-10-23, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Garthr
Well this is going nowhere but in circles. You know, this is the problem with trying communicate in such a primitive way, and nobody really ever knows what the other is saying and how they mean it. Hell, even face to face it's not much different. I can continue the charade of "who knows more of this, that and the other" and all that jazz, and so effing what ? Nothing good ever comes of it, just more of the same going round and round as Hell on Wheels. King of the Jungle in thine own mind, with a welt on thine head from thine own hand.
If you say so.
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Old 12-10-23, 05:33 PM
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The Koolstops I got to replace my DA pads also have those dopey lips. They went to the spare parts pile and I got Swiss Stop pads instead.
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Old 12-10-23, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac
If you say so.
Well, because you're being such a butt head ......... I'll hammer on your head for awhile longer.

Yeah I say so, and I say you're still wrong

Do you even have any experience with KS pads ?

If not, seeing it has no bearing on KS pad tips, why did you bring it up ?

I'm aware Mafac's were standard on the first Stumpy's, and so what ?

The tip is a KS thing, no other mfr does it. Nor do all canti mfrs use offset or elongated pads(Dia Comple 988, TRP/Tektro, SwissStop pads). So it's not a universally agreed upon principle. I get the sales pitch, as I said, I just don't buy it from my experience using them and chopping the ends off. Either I stop or I don't. Obviously I did stop as I'm still here to talk about it. Cross racers preferred smaller pads also.

Pads had been longer since the 50's ?
Longer than what ?
Show us proof, give us all mfr data, model names and dimensions of every brake and pad made for all time, and all performance data of braking in all conditions for all time of each and every rider. Show me, show us all the "Holy Grail" of brakes and pads and performance for all time, since you're so keen on giving everyone a history lesson. Be accurate and be honest now .....

My oh-pining is based on my actual experiences with KS pads. You have no experience with my experience, so your rebuttal to what you never experienced is a lie. Your statement about when the pads got longer and why is conjecture. Do you have direct experience/knowledge with said mfrs ?
Do you have it in writing, show us the documentation and performance data for every possible known and unknown rider, time and condition one has or may ever experience for all time, infinitum ?

I await such "proof" as I wait under the Christmas Tree for one glance of Santa
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Old 12-10-23, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rgvg
What is it for exactly?
Perhaps you should ask Kool Stop? https://koolstop.com/
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Old 12-10-23, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Garthr
Well, because you're being such a butt head ......... I'll hammer on your head for awhile longer.

Yeah I say so, and I say you're still wrong

Do you even have any experience with KS pads ?

If not, seeing it has no bearing on KS pad tips, why did you bring it up ?

I'm aware Mafac's were standard on the first Stumpy's, and so what ?

The tip is a KS thing, no other mfr does it. Nor do all canti mfrs use offset or elongated pads(Dia Comple 988, TRP/Tektro, SwissStop pads). So it's not a universally agreed upon principle. I get the sales pitch, as I said, I just don't buy it from my experience using them and chopping the ends off. Either I stop or I don't. Obviously I did stop as I'm still here to talk about it. Cross racers preferred smaller pads also.

Pads had been longer since the 50's ?
Longer than what ?
Show us proof, give us all mfr data, model names and dimensions of every brake and pad made for all time, and all performance data of braking in all conditions for all time of each and every rider. Show me, show us all the "Holy Grail" of brakes and pads and performance for all time, since you're so keen on giving everyone a history lesson. Be accurate and be honest now .....

My oh-pining is based on my actual experiences with KS pads. You have no experience with my experience, so your rebuttal to what you never experienced is a lie. Your statement about when the pads got longer and why is conjecture. Do you have direct experience/knowledge with said mfrs ?
Do you have it in writing, show us the documentation and performance data for every possible known and unknown rider, time and condition one has or may ever experience for all time, infinitum ?

I await such "proof" as I wait under the Christmas Tree for one glance of Santa
Butt-head = high praise coming from you, Tx!
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Old 12-10-23, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
Perhaps you should ask Kool Stop? https://koolstop.com/
I did take a cursory look at the website before I asked, and all I could see was it was a patented feature, but didn't see what it does.

I just sent an email and I don't know if they'll reply but if they do I'll post their answer here.
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Old 12-11-23, 12:27 AM
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rgvg I’m fairly certain KS will reply with the same answers given in the first few replies in this thread.
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Old 12-11-23, 10:22 AM
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Wow! Glad I just joined this forum. I thought this C&V thread was an example of friendly people being civil, “BUTT” this? Check please!
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Old 12-11-23, 10:52 AM
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What does the plow tip on Kool Stop cantilever brake pads do?

What is it for exactly?
'tis truly one of the greater mysteries of the cycling industry.





random pics found in a quick internet search
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Old 12-11-23, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by hazetguy
'tis truly one of the greater mysteries of the cycling industry.





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Well thank you for that.

I neglected to read the packaging before I threw it away and didn't think to look for an image.
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Old 12-11-23, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Chain smoker
Wow! Glad I just joined this forum. I thought this C&V thread was an example of friendly people being civil, “BUTT” this? Check please!
I'm with Chain smoker here. Ya'll need to behave. It's okay to disagree about something, but name calling and rudeness don't belong on this forum. Take a chill pill.
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Old 12-11-23, 11:59 AM
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Rather than opinions, let's look at brake pad length from an engineering perspective, shall we?

Here's the classic free body diagram for friction that I learned as a freshman in high school.


Does anybody see a variable representing area? Nope. So, at first glance you'd have to agree that there should be no differene in braking between, say 4 dot and 5 dot MAFAC pads. The 5 dots will wear longer, however.

This assumes the the coefficient of friction is constant. Anybody who races cars or motorcycles knows about the dreaded brake fade, where the brakes get so hot as to diminish effectiveness.

Now I'm switching to my opinion, which is worth what you're paying for it.

My guess is that in typical usage, the area of a bicycle brake pad has little to do with stopping power, with the aforementioned benefit that bigger pad areas wear longer, since the increased area of contact decreases the pressure between the pad and rim (pressure = force/area).

In severe usage of bicycle brakes, temperatures can get pretty warm. Long ago I had a double blow out on a tandem down a steep paved road with just cantilever brakes. When I removed the wheel off I burned my hand! I don't recall feeling a significant decrease in braking power prior to the blow outs, but I'll allow for some fade to have occured.

It's too bad I didn't think to ask the question about brake fade on bicycles when @RustyJames set up the Koolstop factory tour (they're in Lake Oswego, Oregon, which is near me). They've got a lot of in-house testing equipment. Maybe someone can find some data online, my quick check didn't reveal anything useful. Most of what I can find is about disk brakes, which can run much hotter than rim brakes.
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