bulgie 

When I worked for Ti Cycles (mid '90s), we did repairs that were a lot more difficult than that. On Litespeeds too. I'm pretty sure Dave Levy (proprietor) still does Ti frame repairs. He was very good in the '90s and has probably only gotten better. Not cheap though.

Ti Cycles is near Portland OR, but if you're shipping the frame somewhere to get it repaired, it doesn't matter much how many miles away.

I have heard Bilenky is also very good, so maybe choose based on estimated cost and/or lead time.

merziac

Second and third this, Dave is the person you want to repair this if you do and if he will, he'll tell you if not and if he does it may be better than new.

He's a one man show and beholden to no one but the customer and himself.

Jack at Franklin would be the only other I would trust to do this.

t2p

agree

that’s a bummer

the frame was probably defective

I don’t believe headset installation or related was the cause - doubt corrosion led to the failure (?) - and no sign of damage from crash etc

maybe a / the mitre of the down tube (at the head tube or bottom bracket shell) was slightly off and the down tube was subject to significant amount of stress (?)

just a wild guess … frame builder could probably provide some better / educated guesses … theories

Kilroy1988 

I can't help but think that using the word "defective" to describe a weld that finally broke after about 25 years of use might not be the correct way to look at the situation. A lifetime warranty is great, but virtually no welds (or tubing or any other material, for that matter) are completely perfect and 100% indestructible. An old weld finally gave out due to some underlying problem, but it looks like it was a perfectly good weld at the start. That goes without saying that the tube itself ended up cracking a lot more than the welded joint!

-Gregory

genejockey 

I went through old Litespeed catalogs, and the 1996 seems to be the first year with the headtube badge, instead of just a decal. 1997 was the last year for the Catalyst. So, 1996 or 1997.

GamblerGORD53

+1 To it's got to be car carrier wiggling. Those things bounce and shake like hell at highway speed.

t2p

^^^

agree - my 95 Litespeed has a decal - 96 Litespeed has the badge

mpetry912 

it will be more expensive to repair than to just buy a new (used) replacement

I have seen some cracks like that - Serottas, the early titanium ones, cracked at the shift lever bosses

/markp

pah

Frame pump mounted underneath top tube instead of on seat tube.

Trakhak

In the fatigue test of 13 high-end frames commissioned by the German Tour magazine in 1997, a Merlin titanium frame developed a crack early in the testing that propagated from the shift lever bosses.

merziac

Send all these good pics to Jack at Franklin frame and see what he says, he's a very straight shooter and will tell you exactly what should be done.

bulgie 

When I repaired Litespeeds, I got to see the inside. There were colors and other artifacts pointing to incomplete argon purge. Slight discoloration is OK but some spots I saw on Litespeeds were enough to warrant some concern. At Ti cycles, we always let the argon purge run long enough to ensure there was no more oxygen inside, or not enough to harm the hot Ti anyway. But Litespeed was pumping them out at a high rate and apparently couldn't wait as long as we did, at their price point.

I also had reason now and then to see the inside of a Ti Cycles frame, and everything was as shiny as a newly minted dime inside.

Almost any contamination, whether from O2 or nitrogen in the air, or schmutz on the outside (a fingerprint, say), will cause the joint to be brittle locally and much reduce the fatigue endurance.

Not only did we use extra-pure welding rod, but we buffed the outside of the rod with Scotchbrite shortly before welding, and wiped with acetone to remove any residue the Scotchbrite might have left. Even acetone is a contaminant, but luckily it evaporates on its own. Tubes and tiddly bits were cleaned in a hot ultrasonic cleaner.

I'm not a super clean person by nature (just ask my wife...) but I loved making super strong bike frames, which is definitely achievable in Ti with enough care. Dave too, so there was no pressure from "management" to work faster. He charged enough that we could afford to be damn near perfect in our cleaning, handling and purging.

Haven't worked there in over 25 years, and no current connection other than saying hi to him every ten years or so when I see him, like at a bike show. I'm glad he's still at it. I don't know if he's considering retiring but you may want to grab some of his work ASAP, because no one lasts forever.

79pmooney

Another ti builder/repairer is Dave Levy of Ti Cycles; not as well known as some but he is one of the very early ti builders. He's seen it all and has repaired everybody's. I bet he could quickly tell you if that is repairable, how he'd do it if it is and what that would cost. He's in Portland, OR, so that isn't so easy but he has done lots of out of state work. (He takes in repairs of the big name ti builders all the time. I've been to his shop many times. Many builders would rather have Dave repair their frames than do it themselves.)

Oldairhead 

About 10 years ago I had a Ti MTB frame with a similar crack near the seat tube on a 1996 Voodoo Canzo. I shopped around for a Ti builder to repair it for about a year with no luck. Nobody wanted to repair someone else's work. Finally I got Dean Cycles to do the work and they did a reasonable job, about 3 inches of welding for $150 plus 2 way shipping. It probably wasn't worth their time with the prep that was required but they were at least willing to work with me. The repair looked acceptable but I decided that I could never trust that frame again! I mainly did it because over the years I'd logged about 12,000 miles racing and training on that bike and it was irreplaceable to me. The Voodoo is still rideable now, but not for any "real" riding. I ended up buying a Moots next and it all worked out. My advice is find a nice lightly used frame and save yourself lots of time and trouble!

Kilroy1988 

bulgie is literally in here talking about his experiences working at Ti Cycles alongside Dave. He posted right before you here.

-Gregory

79pmooney

bulgie, I go to see the inside of one of Dave's steel fork crowns after the blade was cut off just below. The braze was a perfect radius all around like it had been machined only with the raw matte finish of the braze. Art work that human eyes never see.

dddd

Of the popular brands, Litespeed seems to have one of the best reliability rep's, they also made the Merckx EX among many other high-end contract builds.

Kontact 

There is no reason to not make an inquiry with Litespeed before moving on.

Doug Fattic 

I think it is completely unreasonable to expect to warranty a 25 year old Litespeed. They - like almost all consumer products - are not going to last forever. Litespeed as a business practice priced their frames/bikes at a price point that was designed to be attractive to potential buyers. This means that the buyer should understand that by paying less, they should expect a lower quality product.

Also looking at the picture of her bike, she has her handlebars quite a bit lower than her saddle. This works great for some young women racers but most - even really fit and not overweight - women will prefer higher handlebars. Otherwise that forward leaning position bothers the sensitive areas of their crotch. My recommendation is to go to a fitter that is women position knowledgable and find a new or new to you frame that will fit her better - particularly as she ages.

BTW, a "lifetime warranty" is a marketing strategy used by companies to encourage buying an expensive bike. They know a certain number will fail but like insurance policies the cost of those replacements are covered by an increased purchase price. Schwinn Paramounts used the heaviest gauge 531 tubing in their lifetime guarantee frame sets. That is fine for the heavier rider but not for a light person. That is another problem of long term guarantee. Building a bike so it won't break does not have the same ride quality as one that is designed to ride the best.

pbekkerh

What caused that rubbing at the top, the shiny bit?

It looks strange that the crack is on the side. A normal force while riding would be a downward force, causing cracks on the front, propagating on both sides.

If from normal riding, the crack should be more open at the front but it looks more open at the side/rear. Has it been subjected to any side forces?

Garthr

So I gave myself a superficial edumacation in titanium types and it appears Litespeed uses the more brittle type that is more prone to cracking, the 6Al-4V. That's what I read here at least.
​​​​​​https://tibicycles.com/blogs/news/6-...titanium-frame

If that is so, sheesh .... myself I don't think I'd ever trust riding it even "if" it could be repaired. The good news ... new bike day !😃

easyupbug 

Good input above. I had a Lemond Zurich Reynolds 853 frame fail in that exact weld and the bead looked like the welder was having a bad day. SInce then I like to see a stack of dimes in critical spots like my Moots.

Kontact 

It was very superficial. The OP's bike is 3/2.5, not 6/4. Litespeed used 6/4 on only some upper end models.


This thread is full of bad science and consumer philosophy, but these are the basic facts of this failure:
1. It was caused by a bad weld. Regardless of where the crack propagated to, it started at a contaminated weld point. It really doesn't matter what shape the crack is. Like galvanic corrosion on a carbon bike, the welds shouldn't do this and it is from a defect in construction.
2. Good titanium welds don't crack. The welds should be the strongest part of the bike. It doesn't matter how long it takes - a 49cm bike isn't stressed very much and sits more than it gets ridden. The same contaminated weld would have only lasted a powerful Cat1 racer riding a 60cm one season. These bikes are made of aircraft hydraulic tubing - do you think TWA would be okay with random cracks in their flight control systems?
3. Titanium used in bikes (3/2.5 or 6/4) is twice as flexible as steel. While steel bikes of normal construction will wear out with enough riding (usually the right chainstay near the BB goes first), titanium is very hard to wear out because the frame never flexes into the plastic deformation zone.
4. "Lifetime warranty" is not marketing - it was built into the cost of these not-inexpensive bikes. In the mid-90s the base level Litespeed bare frames were $1500, and a complete Catalyst bike was $3300 in 1996 with Ultegra and alloy rims. You paid for that lifetime warranty, and Litespeed would rather not have people talking about bad welds instead of good customer service.

If Lightspeed makes excuses and won't honor the warranty, find another one. I have bought many of this era Ti frames and bikes for bargain prices because I ride a 50cm and those smaller sizes always go for less. Recently I picked up a Douglas Ti bike complete for $500.

purpurite

No, that's a 3/2.5 ti frame.

Trakhak

The current high-end steels, such as Reynolds 953 and the Columbus equivalents, used in astronomically priced frames are harder and stronger than the previous premium steel formulations, a.k.a. more brittle.