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Help me identify the frame manufacturer (and any other interesting details)

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Help me identify the frame manufacturer (and any other interesting details)

Old 05-26-24, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by machinist42
Not Portacatena, Early GS RD Spring Hole.

VERY critical detail I couldn't enlarge photo to catch, thanks for pointing this out!
So that's going to make for a more likely unmodified (except maybe for the WB boss holes) frame from the ttimeframe of late '50s to mid 60s I'd reckon
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Old 05-26-24, 01:10 PM
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Thank you everybody for the contribution so far, this was really helpful and I'll happily provide more info (if I find anything else) once I get the bike to a repair shop for a repaint and revision.

In regards to upgrade options, I'll continue the thread, and hopefully in a month or so I'll have new pictures of the bike.

I have more pictures in my library with the other components on the bike, however I'm not sure how good they are and what actually is 100% worth keeping; but I'll just lay my plan out.

I could change the saddle and seatpost, maybe the stem (3ttt), but I quite like the quill type so might look for another like it, and if I'll keep the handlebars I'll change the brake lever for a more upright position.

The Crankset and BB should be ok (I'll attach pics with both, I know the Crankset is Gipiemme Special 170 but can't tell which model exactly, I never had any issues with them so far. The pedals are new (Nukeproof Evo something).

I 100% want to change the wheels. I need new tires anyway and I'd want to get some better wheels (plus it bothers me they're not a set, tried looking for a 2nd hand Wolber but couldn't find any).
From what I've seen, this is what I have (both 36h):
  • Front Wheel is a Araya 700C (14x622) with a Campagnolo (no other info) hub and a Shimano vintage looking quick release axle.
  • Rear Wheel is a Wolber TX Profil (black) with a Miche (no other info) hub and a Sachs Maillard vintage looking quick release axle.
I have listed some options for wheels, with EU Prices. From what I've read the H+Son option should be the best one, but not sure if it's worth paying extra over the others? I think the Santafixie and Pure Fix ones are the budget options; and really not sure how the Miche and Halo Aerotrack fare against the H+Son (screenshot from the spreadsheet attached).

Another option I've considered is to buy a Second Hand Fixed Gear bike that I found locally, which sells for 420 EUR and has some parts than i could use (especially the wheels), except for the frame. this way I could just put the leftovers together and sell them as a full bike to recoup some money (maybe 100-150 eur?)

This is the actual post of the bike, translated to the best of my knowledge:
Fixed gear / fixie with the following components:
  • Steel Frame: MTB Cycletech size 57
  • Front Wheel:Miche Pistard with braking surface
  • Rear Wheel: H+Son Formation rim;Miche Pistard hub (flip-flop fixed-SSP); Miche 15t sprocket; Miche lockring;
  • Crankset: Sugino RD2 42t
  • Bottom Bracket: Shimano UN55 (BSA thread)
  • Chain: KMC K710SL
  • Stem: ITM Pro Chrome
  • Handlebars:Stella Azzurra Carbon
  • Front Brake:Campagnolo Record
  • Brake Levers: TRP
  • Tyres: Continental Grand Prix 4 season
  • Seatpost: XLC (26.4)
  • Saddle: San Marco Concor Racing Team (I have more if this is not suitable)
  • Pedals: Shimano M520 (not the one in the pictures)
  • Tape: Supacaz Oil Slick (blue)
PRICE: 420 EUR

The bike is in perfect technical condition, built by me personally. The tires, the whole rear wheel and the handlebar have a maximum of 100 km road use.. It does not need any adjustment or change of consumables. Aesthetically, the frame doesn't look great, but it's a city bike and in some ways it's better that way. It comes without Garmin support and the lights in the pictures.
There are 2 pictures attached with this bike. Although it sounds like an ok/good deal, I'm on the fence because it's 2nd hand and I don't know the owner so it's always a risk; I am not sure the Miche Pistard rim actually has a brake surface? and also not sure on the claim that it has not been ridden too much (less than 100km)

Colour wise - I am not too sure, but I'm thinking black frame + fork + wheels + handlebars and silver crankset, seat post, stem? I know some of the wheels I posted are white, but I just wanted to have more options? I'm not too sold on black tho, so I'm open to suggestions but would like to keep it simple (and I think I can only paint it either one colour or 2 colours frame/fork - no patterns)

What do you think? Thank you!


wheelset options

2nd hand bike I could use for parts. (pic 1/2)

2nd hand bike I could use for parts. (pic 2/2)

front hub

front wheel

Gipiemme Crankset (it has Special 170 written on the inside of the arm)

rear wheel

read hub

stem

BB Shimano Japan 35xP1
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Old 05-26-24, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

Mittelholzer Bahn, 1962 -
​​​​​​https://www.speedbicycles.ch/velo/36...bahn_1962.html


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Hey Juvela, do you think maybe it's worth emailing the owner of the website and ask them if they recognise the frame? Worth a shot? It shouldn't take me long to write the email and attach some key pictures.
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Old 05-26-24, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruben_
Hey Juvela, do you think maybe it's worth emailing the owner of the website and ask them if they recognise the frame? Worth a shot? It shouldn't take me long to write the email and attach some key pictures.
-----

sounds like a reasonable idea

sometimes a frame will have one distinctive feature which makes identification easy

nothing like that here as far as i can see

other times it possible to make an identification based on a combination of details, none of which are telling by themselves

let us know if you discover a marking on steerer; if nothing else woud expect Reynolds

stay bridges can sometimes exhibit details, but the ones here are plain

---

Sieber, another CH marque -




https://classicrendezvous.com/countr...erland/sieber/


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Old 05-27-24, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

sounds like a reasonable idea

-----
I did, but didn't get much, however this got me thinking, what would be the best way to cover the WB holes? I guess there's no fixing those.

thank you for your mail.

this could be swiss made from one of the big makers and shop branded.

maybe a cilo.

difficult to set age, i guess not later than 60s.

a shame that someone drilled bottle holder holes.
with best regards from Switzerland

Stefan Schaefter
In regards to the Sieber you last posted, I saw most of them, even if they have Nervex Lugs and whatnot, have SWISS MADE or something like that on the BB, as compared to the Nervex branding I've seen on other retro bikes and my frame.

Last edited by Ruben_; 05-27-24 at 02:34 AM. Reason: more text
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Old 05-27-24, 04:02 AM
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Just wanted to point out that the stem pictured below appears to have a minimum insertion line that's over an inch above the headset. For safety, the stem should be dropped such that the line is flush with the top of the headset.

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Old 05-27-24, 08:39 AM
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-----

wrt Cilo suggestion -

the manufacturer for decades placed serials on the top of the shell on the NDS -





---

wrt w/b holes -

one cold solution is to mount fittings called rivnuts

these will reenforce the edges of the holes and provide threads for w/b holder mount

you want a thread of 5.0mm X .8

something available at hardware stores and by mail order


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Old 05-28-24, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruben_
Hello, thanks for the info, I found the post already and was really helpful. I was wondering if the 22mm is for the stem? Because I actually saw that my quill stem has 22.2 stamped on it (and also saw other stamps that had 22small2E38 while mine clearly is missing the small2
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"normally" a metric dimension frame will be constructed to take a handlebar stem of 22.0mm (21.9mm actual)

in this case since the cycle's fork is of a different colour than is the frame there is a good likelihood that it is not original to the bicycle

removal of headset locknut would yield opportunity to measure steerer diameter. if steerer measures 25.4mm that would be confirmation that fork not original. a metric steerer would measure 25.0mm diameter.


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Old 05-29-24, 12:09 AM
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Thank you, this makes sense; so imperial is just different measure as 25.4 is an inch. Just wondering, I was looking at stems recently, and compatibility wise, whenever I would choose quill, the fork size would show up as 1". Does that mean that metric and imperial forks are interchangeable and that metric is not really in use anymore? Or I'm understanding it wrong?
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Old 05-29-24, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----
wrt w/b holes -

one cold solution is to mount fittings called rivnuts

these will reenforce the edges of the holes and provide threads for w/b holder mount

you want a thread of 5.0mm X .8

something available at hardware stores and by mail order

-----
I can ask the LBS guys to sort it out; I was just wondering, I don't really want to put a water bottle there, but are there any known/quality locks that have a mounting solution to replace the water bottle?
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Old 05-29-24, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruben_
I can ask the LBS guys to sort it out; I was just wondering, I don't really want to put a water bottle there, but are there any known/quality locks that have a mounting solution to replace the water bottle?
The rivnuts are a bit of a hack/gack but better than the current predicament I would backstop them with JB Weld to make sure they stay secure.

Most here wouldn't mount any lock there for the weight and I wouldn't do it no matter what for the potential damage that could result if the rivnuts came loose.

Many bike shops are not proficient at rivnuts if at all, proceed with extreme caution, I would seek out a machine shop or framebuilder.
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Old 05-29-24, 03:25 AM
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Ok, thank you, honestly, I won't use them at all, just wanted to see if there are options, but I think the best way forward now is to make them a bit more aesthetic. I'll take my bike for a full revision and will ask there if they can handle it, if not I'll leave it as is and check somewhere else.
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Old 05-29-24, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruben_
Ok, thank you, honestly, I won't use them at all, just wanted to see if there are options, but I think the best way forward now is to make them a bit more aesthetic. I'll take my bike for a full revision and will ask there if they can handle it, if not I'll leave it as is and check somewhere else.
If you're not going to use the holes, I would find a couple of small rubber plugs to cap them off. Rivnuts can distort the tube, and a better solution is to braze in actual water bottle fittings. BTW, the early comment about clearcoating not protecting the frame is a bit off. If you get a chip in most coatings, rust will start to form like tendrils between the surrounding finish and the steel. The difference between paint and clearcoat is that with the latter you can see it happening.

Imperial is not merely a different nomenclature, as the actual threading is different. Often, nomenclature is used as a way to differentiate different standards and it is not unusual to find decimal or metric designations that seem to convert to the same value, but which represent incompatible standards. This doesn't apply to headsets, as imperial (BSC) is 24 threads per inch, while metric is 1.0 mm per thread: not at all the same. Since it doesn't appear that the stem was sanded to fit the smaller 22.0 mm metric / French diameter head tube, I bet you'll find the fork is British / imperial threaded and not original to the frame. BTW, Sheldon Brown's website has a lot of information on the various threading standards and will set you straight on the history and practices around this topic. https://sheldonbrown.com/velos.html

British and French headset cups have the same outer diameter and swapping both the headset and the fork at the same time is a common practice when dealing with metric-threaded framesets. There are signs of distortion in the headtube, which may have been from someone overzealously pressing in head cups, or a lack of machining prep. If the bike were in my shop, I would mill the headtube to be sure that it was properly prepared to take the cups. Milling frames is not something it's wise to do willy-nilly, but in this case, I would consider it warranted.

Pulling out the soapbox, I would like to pontificate on my belief that the bike industry missed an opportunity to adopt "Swiss" threading as the standard, back in the 1970s. Swiss was essentially French threading with a reverse-threaded fixed cup, combining the most important advantage of British threading with all-metric standards. The only caveats I can see were that French-threaded headtubes were a bit thinner than British (not at all a good thing), and that the metric tubing diameters tended to be slightly smaller, arguably leading to marginally more flexible, though also potentially lighter frames. Reynolds 753 was famously first offered in only metric diameters, possibly to reduce weight. The headtube issue was soon to become moot, anyway, when the industry moved to threadless headsets.
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Old 05-29-24, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

"normally" a metric dimension frame will be constructed to take a handlebar stem of 22.0mm (21.9mm actual)

in this case since the cycle's fork is of a different colour than is the frame there is a good likelihood that it is not original to the bicycle

removal of headset locknut would yield opportunity to measure steerer diameter. if steerer measures 25.4mm that would be confirmation that fork not original. a metric steerer would measure 25.0mm diameter.


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ooook, so this just clicked for me, because we think the frame is metric, then 22mm should apply for the stem. However, I already know that my current stem is 22.2mm, so that is a strong indicator it's from a different frame. I don't think the paint is a good indicator as the guy that I bought it from, ages ago, repainted both so can't tell if they were matching or not.

Now, regarding the steerer; would a 25.00mm accept/work with a 22.2mm stem? I'm asking because (and correct me if I'm wrong), nowadays, most of the threaded forks are 1" (25.4) and most of the quill stems are 22.2mm; I don't even think I saw any 22mm being sold on the online shops.

One last thing, just to fully clarify this, (and this kind of relates to what I said above) the steerer diameter is measured on the frame and it's either 25 or 25.4; does the fork also comes in different sizes or are all threaded forks standard 1"? Also, is there any correlation between steerer diameter and seatpost tubing? other than being metric/imperial?
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Old 05-29-24, 08:46 AM
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-----

background -

nations tend to use one standard for all the manufacturers within the country

"on the continent" the three main cycle producing nations which employ(ed) the metric/french standard were france, spain and schweiz; there were a sprinkling of makers in belgium which used it as well

over the past four decades the iso/bsc dimension has become somewhat of a world standard such that even lands which did not employ it previously began to use it, partially at first

here on this forum we deal with the metric standard a good deal because we are the "classic & vintage " forum

this is why you may have difficulty finding sellers of new parts who offer stems in the 22.0mm size

saddle pillar size -

metric dimension seat tubes have an outside diameter of 28.0mm
with this size the largest inside diameter for a seat post normally encountered is 26.6mm, this on only the highest quality frames like yours

cycles constructed to bsc/iso & italian standard employ seat tubes with an outside diameter of 28.6mm
the largest seat post size normally encountered on these is 27.2mm, and this size only on top quality frames


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Last edited by juvela; 05-29-24 at 09:02 AM. Reason: spellin'
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Old 05-29-24, 09:12 AM
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"BTW, the early comment about clearcoating not protecting the frame is a bit off. If you get a chip in most coatings, rust will start to form like tendrils between the surrounding finish and the steel. The difference between paint and clearcoat is that with the latter you can see it happening."
It's also going to form and grow if the coating (wet paint or Powder Coating) is applied over a steel frame/fork with ANY trace of previous rust or ANY moisture, and most PC shops are not nearly as scrupulous about prep as the higher-cost wet painters.
But NObody is perfect every time!
The deal with a clear coating (painted or melted) over raw steel is the transitory "look" achieved where everything is on display, but that also includes the rusty spiderwebs that I have seen on nearly every frame treated this way. Including a couple I painted myself (and I thought I was being "perfect")!

YMMV
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Old 05-29-24, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sbarner

Imperial is not merely a different nomenclature, as the actual threading is different. Often, nomenclature is used as a way to differentiate different standards and it is not unusual to find decimal or metric designations that seem to convert to the same value, but which represent incompatible standards. This doesn't apply to headsets, as imperial (BSC) is 24 threads per inch, while metric is 1.0 mm per thread: not at all the same. Since it doesn't appear that the stem was sanded to fit the smaller 22.0 mm metric / French diameter head tube, I bet you'll find the fork is British / imperial threaded and not original to the frame. BTW, Sheldon Brown's website has a lot of information on the various threading standards and will set you straight on the history and practices around this topic. https://sheldonbrown.com/velos.html

British and French headset cups have the same outer diameter and swapping both the headset and the fork at the same time is a common practice when dealing with metric-threaded framesets. There are signs of distortion in the headtube, which may have been from someone overzealously pressing in head cups, or a lack of machining prep. If the bike were in my shop, I would mill the headtube to be sure that it was properly prepared to take the cups. Milling frames is not something it's wise to do willy-nilly, but in this case, I would consider it warranted.
Thank you very much for your time and explanation. The number of threads being different explains a lot!

So, the headset cups - they're the bottom and top parts of the front tube of the frame where the fork goes in, and they're the same diameter; however the headset (stem, right?) and the fork are different sizes, so you can't have british fork with french stem and vice-versa; and nowadays the british (imperial) size is much more common. Since my stem doesn't seem to be altered, the assumption is the fork is not matching the frame, as the fork is british (this is funny as in a previous comment today I reached the same conclusion). I hope this is the case as i just ordered a new 22.2 stem. Fingers crossed!

I am not sure what milling the head tube means? I tried googling it but nothing specific came up; is it the same as reaming? (as I found a video about that). I'm taking my bike on Friday for a repaint and they'll also take it apart (of course) and clean it, so I can ask them if this is needed or not! I will probably get new cups (replace the black ones) as I don't think they're that expensive and the ones I have are no-names anyway!
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Old 05-30-24, 10:12 AM
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a reamer cuts (therefore enlarges) a hole on the inside surface. a milling tool cuts the exterior, in the case of "milling" a headtube it cuts the top and bottom edges of that tube so the surface the cups (or a cup + a race) sit against when installed are flat and square = parallel. Same thing when a BB shell is "milled" those outer edges are made flat and square so the BB cups and a lockring if one is used has a flat surface to bind against plus at correct right angles to the threads in the shell (assuming the threads were cut properly). Milling also reduces the width or length of these tubes so best to do milling very lightly, only enough to achieve the desired flattening and squaring up.
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Old 05-30-24, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by machinist42
Not Portacatena, Early GS RD Spring Hole.

Good catch.
One tiny nit-picky correction though, it is for Cambio Sport, not Gran Sport. GS didn't use the hole. I don't know when they stopped making Sport mechs but they were never very popular, because they stink. I seem to remember the dropouts with holes gradually faded away as builders used up their stocks, finally going away mid-'60s maybe? So that could put a loose and fuzzy top end for the date on this frame.

The Sport is that (frankly kinda dumb) mech with no idler pulley at all, just a single jockey pulley. It had a sprung upper pivot (unlike any other Campy mech until the Gran Turismo), and the spring goes in the hole in the DO hanger.



They had a very narrow range of cog sizes you could use, but they weren't aimed at racers at all, it was for sedately-ridden town bikes with Condorino (uproght touring) handlebars. So, for cities that are flat, so you don't need low gears. Their answer to a Sturney 3-sp IGH.

Note, possible source of confusion, C also made another mech called Sport, which was much more conventional with two pulleys:



That Sport doesn't have a spring in the upper pivot, doesn't use the hole in the DO.

There is one good use for a Sport with the sprung upper pivot, and that's to graft just the upper knuckle with the spring onto the lower half a GS or Record, to give them a sprung upper pivot. That vastly increases the gear range they can handle. Basically making it into a Simplex, only heavier and stronger, no plastic.

I have done this, and it's extremely time-consuming fiddly work with almost no upside other than bragging rights among early Campaholics. If you just want a derailer with a wider range, buy a Suntour ferchrissakes. But if you must have a '50s or '60s Campy mech but you're old fat and weak like me, this is technically possible. I've used mine with a 14-30 in back and a 21-tooth range in front (triple chainring), below 1-to-1 low, proper old-man gears. These hybrids do shift very well once you get past all the hassle of making and mounting one.

Here's my Record hybrid, with a claw adapter mounted temporarily just to hold the pieces together. The claw rotated back like that shows you the spring is pushing it back.




And here's the Sport/GS hybrid:



Sorry for the digression. We now return you to the discussion of OP's lovely mystery frame.
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Old 05-30-24, 04:45 PM
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-----

​​​​​​

found a retail cycle shop with the Koenig name but, alas, it be resident in DE rather than CH, Seligenstadt to be specific

​​​​​​https://radsport-koenig.de/

there is an actual Koenig cycle marque but once again it be a denizen of DE rather than CH, located in Baden-Baden

https://fahrrad-koenig.de/

note that headplate appears to sit slightly askew

possible it may be something which a previous owner had on hand and used to fill existing fastener holes

we do not know that its fastener holes are original

it could have been originally affixed with adhesive rather than fasteners which would have given the reuser the opportunity to make holes which line up with the existing ones in the head tube

all speculation

does not advance the inquiry


-----

Last edited by juvela; 05-30-24 at 06:41 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 05-31-24, 01:57 AM
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Thank you, juvela; I have emailed the 2nd shop (used google translate, hope it helps) to see if they maybe had an older logo. I also found the first one but I doubt they know it, I'll email them also!
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Old 05-31-24, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruben_
Thank you, juvela; I have emailed the 2nd shop (used google translate, hope it helps) to see if they maybe had an older logo. I also found the first one but I doubt they know it, I'll email them also!
-----

conceivable you may be able to learn something regarding headplate

does not advance inquiry as cycle could not have been produced in DE since it was produced to metric/french standard which DE doth employ not


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