I can only guess that Sachs posted that when he was unable to source or had to wait for a tubeset that he really wanted for a build. It makes no sense to me although I think I get his drift. I’m sure a lot of these people decide to build a bike for themselves because they don’t want to wait 2+ years for someone else to build one for them. You can argue the opposite to Sachs, using economics. Maybe if we all went out and bought a set of tubes and lugs and stuck them in a closet, the folks at Reynolds would add a second shift to meet the surge in demand.

To extend the thought about us as riders and collectors of old bikes, I don’t see anything wrong with however one wants to go about it, except maybe that guy who beat up his bikes with a sledgehammer because no one would pay his asking price on eBay. Clearly there are plenty of old bikes to go around given the market prices right now. I think there are numerous ways to give to the community in addition to being generous with time or resources. One fine example is friendliness to others trying to participate like earlier this year when I rode at the Pasadena Velo Retro ride and the San Diego Brian Baylis ride. I was on a modernish Ritchey Breakaway but still was welcomed in the Tribe and had a great time as guys were happy to talk about bikes to anyone who would listen. Another way is to ooh and ahh when someone shows off their bike even if you really think it’s kinda meh (I’ve never done that!).

So that's why you always have such nice things to say about my bikes! I appreciate it. :D

I think when Jim Merze makes a few seat post binder bolts and offers them to us, he is doing what RS is suggesting craftsmen do but maybe not often enough. Dave Bohm is another craftsman who makes stuff. I bought a set of tube blocks from Dave that he made. These are two guys that are doing what RS would like to see more often. Jim and Dave did not need prompting from Richard -- They are a dying breed -- And I think that is Richard's lament.

When playing the Box o' crap game, I get more of a kick when someone picks out something I put in than taking out a cool part. So I get your sentiments on Sachs's post, it just came off as off putting to me.

I’m not draining the supply pool, merely curating a collection:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...643a82e74.jpeg

Holy Christmas.

Kid in the left foreground is contemplating: "That's got to be the greatest jungle-gym I've ever seen! Now where should I start my climb?"

P.S. I can imagine that cudak888 is furiously scanning the pile for his next Ride Share Museum acquisition. :innocent:

When making something in the hand-craft business, often it is as nearly easy to make several than just making one. Your fixture setup takes time. You get into a groove doing a task. The process is setup for multiples. There are many reasons to make more than one. But at the very beginning of it all, there needs to be motivation. With bike parts it is mostly personal. Jim Merz wants to make some weight weenie parts or a better bivalent hub, it is because it floats his boat. Make a few extra because you can. And maybe, just maybe he will cover the costs of material. He is certainly not in it for the money and he can do that because he is retired.

I do the same, it floats my boat, I'm not in it for the money. I have a day job I won't quit. It has OK health insurance. I'm not giving that up. And if I were in the bike business, I sure as **** would not apply my craft to something that doesn't put shoes on the kids. Sachs suggesting it is an obligation without providing value is insulting. For a hobby, fine, give back if you want, or don't. For a business, pay for baby's shoes.

Do you think if a teacher is blaming their students for not being successful it perhaps could be a sign of a crappy teacher?

I have no idea exactly what this thread is about but want to say that I have too much vintage bicycle stuff in my house and garage, however, I occasionally give a bike to a musician acquaintance who needs it. It's fun seeing someone ride what you built. If that's giving back it's awesome. Meanwhile I'll hunt down a frameset just a tiny bit better than the 4 I currently ride.

I'm not sure it is fair to say Moulton was "blaming" his students, but leaving that aside for a moment and answering the question: Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes it's the teacher. Sometimes it's the student. Sometimes it's both. Sometimes it's just a bad teacher/student fit. Sometimes it's a result of factors beyond either one's control.

But when the teacher/student thing clicks, magic happens. Witness Dave Moulton and Russ Denny.

Now get off my lawn . . . . :D

Just another case of CGFBCBBS, he's certainly not alone. (Chronic Grouchy Frame Builder Cry Baby Bitterness Syndrome.) It comes from expecting glorious hero status derived from every file stroke.

Yep, unless Dave can get the student to give us an explanation of why he bailed out, we'll never know.
Personally, I can envision that the student figured out that it was a career not unlike a starving artist, but with a shrinking customer base. Maybe he made a lateral transfer into plumbing?

My own history includes two purchases of custom frames. Both were hobbyist builders who had proper incomes to rely upon. Both frames worked out well for me, and I'm still riding them after 20 and 30 years.

Steve in Peoria

This hobby is kept alive by companies like Velo-Orange, Soma, Rivendell, Rene Herse, Nitto, Dia-Compe, Tange, etc who continue to make parts for classic bikes. Velocals too but they are gone now. Although maybe not their intent, but Sunrace and KoolStop likewise probably kept a fair number of old bikes from the landfill. Outside of these handful of companies the landscape is very bleak for C&V bikes. Look at the Chinese component makers. They make every component for the modern bike at every price point from cheap to dirt cheap. They make well regarded carbon wheels and power meters. If you want a 1X external BB crankset you get pages and pages of them on Aliexpress. But nothing for the classic bike. Not one thing. We don't exist as far as these manufacturers are concerned.
So Richie has a point. If we want to keep these classic bikes alive, we have to continue to make parts for them.

Well, I’ve bought plenty of stuff on AliExpress in the last couple of years that went on vintage bikes: cartridge bottom brackets, 1” threaded headsets, handlebars, cranksets, brake levers, chains, tubes, tires. Searching can be somewhat of an adventure, but, oh, those prices!

Richie is…well, Richie. We’ve never met but have communicated from time to time, and he built me a lovely frame a couple of years ago. My guess is he’s a nice enough guy to hang out and have a beer with but I suspect, like many of us, that he can be an acquired taste. So to speak.

However, and perhaps this is what was intended, Richie has developed tubing (e.g. Pegorichie), several sets of lugs, fork crowns, a revised and improved seat post bolt and some other specific-to-the-trade toys, all of which are available to the public. There was a period not long ago when building lugged frames out of steel looked like it was going down the toilet. In other words, he took the time and effort to ensure that others might have an opportunity to enter the craft. And that’s exactly how he sees it- as a craft.

Frame builders who are just buying what’s out there and putting frames together aren’t contributing to the craft in the same way- as he sees it. And when folks like Richie retire, who will take the time and effort to continue to advance the craft?

None of us understand what he meant, but there certainly are a few people that are getting upset about it.

There are no craft apprentices in the U.S. nowadays, and there haven't been any for a long time. So builders not having an apprentice is not surprising. My personal opinion is that if someone can't pay for a school, they aren't serious. It's not much money.

that brings to mind when I saw Hank Folsom at the Henry James booth at the 2015 NAHBS.

https://live.staticflickr.com/3195/3...8f7696_b_d.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3627/3...973ab3_b_d.jpg

Hank is the man behind the Henry James brand. He appeared to be "classic and vintage" himself, which makes me wonder how long he'll be doing the job of providing lugs and fork crowns. Is there a plan to pass the business along to the next generation?

Steve in Peoria

Sachs - do I remember him being absent from many of the NAHBS shows? I only attended several early ones and one in Portlandia.

I've only been to the 2009 NAHBS in Indianapolis and the 2015 one in Louisville.
Mr. Sachs was at the 2009 one, with a nice display of his bikes and goods. The muddy cross bike made me happy. :)

https://live.staticflickr.com/3427/3...67483d_b_d.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3327/3...6ea108_b_d.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3658/3...6052be_b_d.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3377/3...08f3f1_b_d.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/3352/3...e51a08_b_d.jpg

I have to give Mr. Sachs credit for good business practices, at least in finding a niche where he could excel, and in good marketing. He's described building bikes in batches too, which is more efficient.

Steve in Peoria
(where I have my own Sachs... team jersey. Maybe not as valuable as a frame, but it's been a good jersey)

I don’t understand the acrimony toward him. Richard Sachs is a good guy, very thoughtful, and so good for the sport. We could use another couple dozen just like him

Hank sold it to some kids in Portland and they soon closed up and quit. Funny he pops up in this thread. He lived down the street from me but I didn’t know Hank = Henry James. We were talking bikes one day and I showed him my Medici which he really liked but when I told him I had a Richard Sachs on the way, he told me the ride won’t be what I expected. Of course, Hank was a True Temper guy.

Many craftsmen see and utilize apprentices as cheap labour and use them as such. Telling them to file lugs for a year before allowing them to braze on their first cable stop as a example. The reality is lugged frame building can be taught in a fairly short period of time especially to someone with a bit of metalworking experience or a strong mechanical aptitude. There are numerous respected courses available including one taught by Paul Brodie which are 2 weeks in length or slightly longer. This skill is much too basic to base an apprenticeship on. The difference between a highly experienced frame builder and a newbie is the amount of time required to build the frame, the end product would be virtually identical especially in performance and ride.

Your comment how one identical bike would ride different than another confounding the builder is nothing but frame building lore and completely ridiculous. They know more than anyone that the business is based on nothing but marketing bs. Yes Sachs bikes can be beautiful however underneath the paint, subtle graphics and well finished joints they ride and perform like any other bike made of the same materials.

I disagree. Not surprising given our past differences.
Have owned many steel lugged bikes of both the custom/hand crafted and production variety.
If they all rode the same I wouldn’t have bothered to keep looking for ones that rode well for ME and MY riding style.
Of the three Sachs that have passed through The Lab, one remains.
Of the dozen or so Merckx that I’ve owned, one remains.
Most of the Schwinn Tempos I’ve owned have been consistently good but I finally stopped selling them to people who asked. One remains.
Etc. There are ten in The Lab, but it took over a hundred to get there.

There is an old story about Pablo Picasso. Lady comes up to him, asks for an autograph. He does it and she then asks if he would do a little doodle on the paper. He does it and as he hands the doodle/autograph back, he says $50K please. The lady is indignant. How dare you charge me $50K for a doodle that took you a minute to make, she said. Picasso replied, I'm charging you the 50 years it took to give me the ability to make that doodle.

The idea you can take a class and master a craft is asinine. Anyone to suggest it has never made a thing in their life. Do yo need the 10,000 hours as the lore says? Probably not. But 40 hours in a class ain't gonna cut it at all. I believe an apprenticeship is the best means of learning a trade, beats school hands down.

I will also say I have never met Sachs in person. He may be the greatest person in person for all I know. On the other hand I also know what he writes is just BS. This isn't the first dumb **** thing he wrote, I'm betting it ain't the last.

Now, I need to to get my princess ass as sensitive as Doc's so I can feel that pea. :)