Draining the supply pool
 

I just saw an intriguing post from Richard Sachs today on his Facebook feed, which I hope he won't mind me quoting here.

I'm not "in the trade" so on the surface this doesn't apply to me, but it struck me that this same thought very much applies to those of us who enjoy collecting and restoring vintage bikes, perhaps even more so. I know a lot of us here, myself certainly included, have stockpiles of bikes, frames, parts, and tools that tend to grow over time.

Many members of this forum have amazed me with their generosity in sharing, either freely or at minimal cost, from their stores (of both physical assets and knowledge) and have inspired me to do the same. I think I would go so far as to say that what we have here is a gift culture -- status and reputation are achieved not by what you have but by what you give.

I'm not suggesting that we should all be going out buying things to give to one another or that we shouldn't be buying things so that they will be available to others. I'm not even suggesting that anything needs to change. I'm just reflecting on what I do to contribute to the C&V bike world and inviting you to join a discussion.

I'm not a craftsman and am merely passable as a mechanic. I try to share what knowledge I have, and I'm working on being a bit less of a hoarder. Now I'm wondering what else I can do to give back to our tiny corner of the bike world.

I'm not asking for advice specifically for myself. Rather I'd like to see a general discussion of ways in which we can together make C&V bike culture more sustainable.

What do you think?

Great post Andy. I know many people are participating in this hobby for different reasons. My philosophy aligns with yours (and potentially Richard Sachs). I like to do my part for the "community" in a number of ways. I donate some of my spares (Parts/frames) to the Silicon Valley Bike Exchange, I try to populate the BoC with parts that I think others will be very happy to receive, and when I sell parts, I only sell to the Bike Forums C&V community at a very good price. When I come upon a parts bike, I'll usually give away the frame if someone want it. I also try to add in any information that I can into posts where I think I can add value.

I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to keep this C&V bike thing we do sustainable. I pimp prosthelytize for selfish reasons - I like to ride with others that ride the same way I do, on bikes similar to what I ride. I also enjoy torching up bikes for others, and their enjoyment of the process is my enjoyment as well.

I also think that Richard's sentences are hard to parse. Maybe that's just me.

First, the sanctimony of Sachs is not surprising. No individual is responsible for a supply chain and I completely understand why people don't want to get mixed up into that business. Telling them "good luck to you" is beyond doo-shy.

That said, I just enjoy making stuff. Granted, I got about 8 people interested in that stuff, so my impact to the C&V bike culture is minimal. But if I make a CAD model for printing, or make a silicone mold, I am always happy to share. I also think good documentation is important. I know 1 person interested in documenting early Campagnolo, 1933-1951 stuff. He passed so now I am going to continue with his research. Again, I think about 8 people will be interested in it (meaning spending $40 for a book). I think that is as as important as the "stuff" side.

I think sharing knowledge or even bike trivia in our forums really helps to sustain the interest in C&V. Heck, just post some pics. Call for new topics!

Interesting concept, of course Richie gets quite contemplative (follow on instagram)

my experience is the the BF CV community is amazing genuine and generous with information and parts and that sustains the community.

I support Good Karma in san jose with items that are surplus and am putting more up on the for sale section, both to clean up and to ensure use

Expanding the community is more difficult as for the most part most of us learned to love the classic style in our youth.

Simple things like riding and answering questions about "what is that old bike" may help expand the community

another is to focus on reuse. A lot of my 26 year old son's friends are into thrifts and reuse.... could be an avenue for sharing

I'm not sure what "draining the supply pool" quite looks like when it comes to frames and parts that haven't been produced for 40 years or so. Perhaps that's aimed at those who hoard parts? Those who list parts on eBay for ridiculous prices that no one will ever pay? Not sure I really care.

I really like to ride bikes. I also like to tinker on bikes. I've had phases of flipping and hoarding, but mostly feel burdened by having too much stuff these days. Along those lines, I'm glad to do repairs for friends and colleagues, to fix up bikes to give away, to do some limited buying and selling here on BF, particularly if I see an ISO and have something someone might actually need. We live in strange(r) times, and I really don't think this C&V hobby or even framebuilders such as Richard Sachs are doing much to make this less strange.

Dang! you are a prolific SOB.... how many wives?

LOL,,,,fixed it.... I am a lapsed catholic, but never that catholic

There was a video on the Ellis Briggs youtube channel whining about new builders being dangerous and not putting in enough work before they sell bikes. I don't know if this post is a response to that or not. But I had similar thoughts rejecting that video. We need new builders to keep the supply chain of parts going. But also, a lot of builders are retiring and not leaving anyone behind to make bikes.

It's not their fault if there's no one to "pass the flame" to.

Many years ago Richard used the term “Gyro” to denote an enthusiastic newby looking to build frames and sell them before he was ready.
most of those guys are gone.
The lament about others not looking to curate a supply chain is a complaint.
in this bike market where new bikes 2-3 years old sit on shop floors and distributor warehouses still, it is going to take years for the market to stabilize.

another way to view it is why invest in tooling and inventory when there is a meager market to risk the time and capital?

I am retiring from my business, it had a decent run, I ran it for 30 years. There was a supplier collapse in 2020. New tech is out but the cost of entry is steep, and that does not include programming. There might be room for ONE supplier nationwide, and the market is aware but cannot pass on the costs. If the future brings cheaper integrated CNC stitching and perforation equipment, might be an Avenue, I will be off doing other things. I can point to other similar strained business models, so it goes.

Has Sachs ever had 1 apprentice, let alone the dozens he could have mentored? Has there been a bike builder that can afford health insurance? Him asking for others to double down on the buggy whip can only be a joke or just a narcissistic rant. I suspect the latter.

I know his writing is a bit obscure, but there's no way he meant you shouldn't buy frame parts if you weren't going to use them. Very few people intend to do that anyway, but it does work out that there are a lot of unused frame parts out there.

I know that lug collectors exist. More power to them, there are more lugs to collect.

I bought the parts to build a frame from Richard in 2010-ish, and didn't end up using them until 2019.

There is a never-ending supply of people that want to build frames for a living. It seems to me that there are more now than there have been for a long time. But it's difficult to make it work.

Seems to me there are more builders working now than there have been in decades, and many are doing pretty innovative stuff, I dare say more so than a lot of the “classics”.

Here are just a few:

https://www.tomiicycles.com
https://www.chapmancycles.com
https://www.avalanche-cycles.com
https://lamarchebikeco.com
https://theradavist.com/tag/porter-cycles

I have no idea what Richard Sachs has or has not done, but Dave Moulton may provide a bit of insight here. He says he took on a number of apprentices, but they were all in a hurry and would not/did not put in the time and effort to learn the trade properly. They would not put up with doing the same tasks over and over and over again until they could do it perfectly every time, and only then move on to learning the next task. None of them would do this - except for Russ Denny. You can read about it here. Denny took over Moulton's operation in 1993 and apparently is still going strong.

So at least part of the problem is that young people are impatient and don't want to take the time and repetition necessary to get it right. As Mr. Natural would say, 'twas ever thus.

I don't know if that has been Richard Sachs' experience, but it would not surprise me it if was.

Generational, get off my lawn, BS.

It is a crap job. Long hours, no pay. The market size equals that of the buggy whip market. It is a dinosaur. And here comes Sachs saying not only should you buy 1 dinosaur, you should buy 2. If anything, it shows young people aren't idiots. And if Sachs actually was honest to any potential apprentice, don't do it, why complain about draining the supply pool?

Most everything I've read that he's written is obscure. Maybe that's his intention.

I do not think an apprentice was ever accepted.
I did think about that situation, he did on the old bikelist framebuilders list attempt to answer questions. Very few direct translatable guidelines. 8 cm of BB drop was one. The other stuff was often pretty obtuse.

Anyone who buys C&V parts (or even new parts for that matter) is "draining the supply pool", whether they give back in other ways or not - so the whole premise of the argument is nonsense.

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't claim that it is anyone's responsibility to keep it going. If someone wants to fill a warehouse full of old bike parts and leave instructions that the stash be buried with them, you do you, as they say. For me, giving back makes it more enjoyable. It creates a sort of connection, and I think a lot of people here must feel the same way.

Yeah, I kind of suspected that I might be stepping in a pile of something by quoting him. He's a funky guy. I'm certainly not trying to defend him or even pretend I know what he meant. I was mostly just sharing my source.

Yes, where we are right now in C&V land, knowledge is one of our biggest "at risk" assets. Sheldon Brown, for example, is a legend to many of us because of what he did in preserving and passing along what he knew. Me? I find that what I've contributed on this forum helps at least one person on a regular basis, and that person is me. I can't tell you how many times I've run a search for some piece of information on this site and found an old thread where I answered the exact question I'm pondering. I can only imagine how often that will happen once I get old. :p

You're right about one thing - I shouldn't overgeneralize about the young'uns. Dave Moulton's experience shows that the young'uns to whom he was exposed - young'uns he says came to him and begged (I believe that was the word he used) to be taught the frame-building trade didn't want to put in the time or gather the experience - except for Russ Denny.

As for your diplomacy skills . . . .

Well, I don't think Richard Sachs was applying it to vintage parts at all. I honestly have no idea what supplies he meant. It was me that transferred the idea to C&V bikes, so I can tell you that for me it was more of a metaphor than an allegory. I didn't have any particular "supply pool" in mind. It was more of a vague notion of doing something that rejuvenates the hobby versus doing things that winds it down. And to some extent I don't really care which thing other people do. I think most of us here probably want to leave it at least as good as we found it, and that's why I brought the topic here.

I'm really not sure where hoarding bike parts even falls in this view. The parts hoarder keeps them out of the land fill at least a while longer. At some point, that stash is likely to go back into circulation, and it will be a great joy for someone when it does. Having someone now with a sense for what's worth keeping and what's not adds something.

Then there are those who snatch ratty old frames put out to the curb, fix them up and either sell them or give them away. They've given that bike at least one more shot. The next owner will probably ride it like a rented mule for a few years and then put it out on the curb again, but maybe someone else will pick it up and fix it up again. I especially like seeing this done with low end bikes (especially when it's other people doing it!). It's a quixotic venture to be sure, but I love it as a sign of defiance against entropy and decay.

I didn't expect this line of exploration. As it happens, just two days ago RS shared an old article in which he gave some kind of explanation of why he had not taken apprentices. It had something to do with his own inability to answer the question for himself why one frame that he made was better than another, in spite of him striving to make both as good as he knew how. As squirtdad said, "Richie gets quite contemplative" (a generous way of putting it, IMO). The answer about not taking apprentices was like that. I'm pretty certain he knew what he meant. I'm much less certain that I know what he meant.

I hadn't considered the apparent disconnect between him not having apprentices and his complaint about others not keeping the flames alive, but given how close these two topics were in his feed, I would be surprised if he had not made a connection between them.