Obscure? I think he's just not very good at expressing himself.

Oxford dictionary offers this as one of their definitions of "obscure":
Since I was the only one who mentioned school, I guess I have an asinine view of how one might become proficient at framebuilding. OTOH, I have built over 1000 frames in my life, so maybe you weren't talking about me after all. My thought process is that to get to the point that you have a chance of becoming proficient at building frames, you need the amount of training you get in a class. There are no framebuilders in the U.S. that have an operation that would easily accommodate an apprentice, and there is no reason that they should give people the equivalent of thousands of $ of training. In the U.S., if you are an apprentice, you have to be paid at least minimal wage. What happens after the school is up to the student. Self study is possible, since someone that has been to a school knows what has to be done. Even if they didn't master it at school. There are lots of online resources to get help.

I understand the value of an Apprenticeship having successfully completed one as a Tool & Die maker. It required 720 hours classroom time and 8,000 hours practical experience, finally challenging a national exam to certify competency.

To say framebuilding requires an apprenticeship is laughable. It requires the absolute most basic metalworking skills. There are plenty of frame building courses ranging from 40 hours and up most reputable courses settling in at 80 hours. As mentioned earlier the builder would be in no way as efficient as an experienced builder but the end result would be equivalent. Perhaps you can explain why almost all current custom frame builders are self taught? Why are there hundreds if not thousands of small one person frame builders scattered around the world, even this forum has a lively frame building sub forum. This mystique built around frame building is nothing more than an attempt at differentiating virtually identical products in the marketplace.

I am aware I am a bit of an outlier on this forums regarding this subject and the deification of vintage. I have been exposed to a diverse variety of metal fabrication work my whole life and bicycles are as basic as it gets. That is not to say that many high-end custom bicycles are not well-made and beautifully presented.

"a bit of an outlier", now THAT's laughable. :roflmao2:

Agree with most of your points from your full post, but not quite sure I can buy this one. Perhaps name several? Sachs, Weigle and Serrota famously apprenticed at Whitcomb. The family tree from Wastyn - Eisentraut - many is well known. Then there are the ones that took a class, like the UBI course I took 8 years ago.

But, yeah, if a jamoke like me can take a 2 week course and build a useable frame, the barriers to entry are pretty low.

The thing that often gets either over-looked or not really discussed all that much is that 'frame building' is not a single skill.

Brazing, welding, filing/cutting mitres are all practical metalwork skills that can be (relatively) easily taught to engaged pupils and if they put the effort in they will perform them to an acceptable standard with enough practise. Certainly some will become more adept, some will have a 'natural flair' and learn techniques that allow them to braze/weld/file more consistently and reliably than others but the underlying skill is easily transferable and NOT magic, the real skill is in doing it consistently well.

However frame geometry is most definitely a learned skill and is as much mental as practical, although still has a very practical aspect to it. You can't become 'good' at frame geometry through repetition and practise alone, it requires you to study and comprehend the definable aspects, the maths and interactions between various forces and kinematics. But it also requires you to have direct experience of riding the damn things, or a VERY good and close relationship with someone who does who can feedback after riding your creations. Even if you arrive at a 'perfect' geometry for use case X under person Y though repetition and practical experience, that's not necessarily going to transfer to use case Z or another person.

So often I hear people saying things like "you don't want to put a a Xmm stem on that, it'll steer badly", or some other similar comment about a frame angle or whatnot, and yes some people have huge practical experience of riding many bikes, but more often than not this is 'repeated fact' rather than direct experience. How many people have deliberately ridden 'bad' combinations or setups to feel first hand how they ride? I've ridden many hundreds of bikes over the years, some far more than others, and can normally make a pretty good assessment of how any given bike will ride before I swing a leg over but there are still surprises, either from an aspect of the frame I wasn't aware of or how a particular component choice interacts with another etc. and I LOVE it when I get surprised. I also love to experiment too have been prompted to try various things after riding an unknown bike and it stirring up some thoughts about bits i liked/didn't like or found just plain different to what I'm used to.
Likewise, if you're building frames with a certain geometry I would hope that you've arrived at that decision based on thousands of hours and miles riding various geometries so that you really understand the effect, and if you're in the business of *custom* frames you need to be understanding the person riding it, the environment and use case they're riding in and building a frame to suit them, and very little of that will be defined by how good you are at brazing.

This also brings me on to tubing/component selection, which goes hand in hand with both geometry and the physical aspects of joining tubes together as well as how the user will interact with the frame (eg: fastenings, fittings, dropouts etc.). This is another area where expertise comes from practical experience as well as intellectual learning/hard maths. You can't go recommending a specific butting profile for a particular frame or rider if you don't actually know how that choice will affect the frame in terms of it's structural integrity and desired ride feel. You also need to have a decent understanding of the person who's going to pedal it, what their riding style is in terms of power delivery and output, how they sit on the bike, how they manhandle the bike at extremes and a dozen other factors.
This feeds back into your geometry choices too, changing one aspect can affect the other and this isn't knowledge gained from filing lugs day after day after day, it's gained from building, and riding (either directly or by proxy), large numbers of frames, in large numbers of situations, and not just good ones, you have to build bad ones too to understand why they're bad and others are good!

Working out how to join all those bits together the fulfill the requirements is a different skill to physically joining the components. Back in the olden days (I hate that phrase!) in bigger frame shops churning out large numbers of frames it would not be unusual for tasks to be distributed according to expertise, with the end frame being a mix of Johns design, Peters mitres, and Bobs brazing, and the frames were excellent and consistent.
To have one person able to perform all the tasks and building solo is not necessarily the best way of creating a frame, sure there are those that can do it, but it's not necessarily normal or optimal. In mass production we already have this, frames designed in one location, and built in another, but mass production throws in other issues like economy of scale, speed of production, and having to cater to a range of potential riders.
In custom building there's really no reason why you can't have a frame designed and components selected by one person, and physically joined by another, who is the frame builder? and who is responsible for how it rides?

I would much rather have a frame built to an average/acceptable physical standard by a builder who has the knowledge and experience to choose the right frame components and geometry than one who may be able to join each part exceptionally well but is joining a poor choice of tubes in a questionable arrangement!

TL;DR - anyone with the correct metalwork skills can 'build' a frame, they could even join all the tubes the the highest standard possible, but it won't necessarily be a 'good' frame.

That's where the skill is, in understanding and executing the whole.

I don't doubt that after a 2-week class I could make a usable frame. I also don't doubt US framebuilders would have a difficult time paying an apprentice.

Can I make a business off of that usable frame? After two weeks, how many hours will it take me to make a frame as well as you? How many hours will it take you? Will I know the files to use so the surface continuity of the lug will give me elegant reflection lines? Will my shore lines be crisp? Will I be able to make a tubing and geometry recommendation for a long torso, 60" 105 pound person and a 75" 250 pound person? How well will I put paint down? Want me to go on?

I'm just guessing here, but I don't think after a course I am making a frame for a customer as well as you or Sachs. And in a previous life I was pretty proficient with an English wheel and tig welder doing body work on vintage cars. It is unfortunate that I was able to apprentice in that restoration shop and US framebuilders would have a difficult time doing the same. That is the nature of the market. The US values vintage cars, we don't give 2 craps about a steel bike.

This thread has been a discussion about a master framebuilder. So again, do you need 10,000 hours before you can enter the market and compete? Probably not. Can you do the same after a 2-week course? I'll stick with asinine.

I never said someone that went to a school would be ready to go into business building frames. They will be at a level where they could be mentored without a ridiculous amount of effort. And it shows a level of commitment instead just a nebulous desire. Some graduates would be at a level where they could teach themselves. What it should take after school to sell frames has always been a big debate among framebuilders, and it's an unsolved problem. The real problem with framebuilding as a business is pricing frames, selling them, and running a going business. Learning to build them isn't that hard for a lot of people.

If the person is producing quality new or rebuilt vintage bicycles that are then put into general circulation, I have no issue. I would agree with the frustration if someone were buying up large quantities of material or parts and hoarding them without putting to use. But if the result is a bicycle put into the market or circulation among users and collectors, then great.

If you look at whatever vintage bike you enjoy, the stock of these things is finite. Some are more limited in number than others, but scarcity still applies. Putting one more old bike back into circulation by fixing it up, including using up stocks of old parts if needed, is a positive, not a negative.

reasonable overview but leaves out the swath of people who come to frame building with other allied skills that shorten the learning time.

that said, the demise of industrial education ( shop classes) have hollowed out the pool of capable, or aware people. This will extend the learning unless very gifted.

I think I was at the near tail end of the decent shop classes in school, 2 years after me, my brother’s experience was a shadow. Now, we had a leg up, an transportation design industrial design father and an airframe and power plant mechanic grandfather, I learned much from him.

I re-read Andy’s original post and it reminded me of a discussion I had with my former in-laws.

There was talk at the dinner table about giving or volunteering for charities. I was a bit put-off since it seemed there were daggers being thrown at others for not doing anything to help out. I surprised myself by calmly asking “What are you doing to help out?” There were a few comments about how they think people (others) should do something to help. I calmly piped back in, “No, what are YOU doing? A lot of these organizations could really use help and they are very grateful if you can spare a few hours to help them with anything. It becomes almost selfish because you feel REALLY good afterwards. So, what are you going to do?” I wasn’t accusing, I was asking a sincere question that gave me blank stares in return.

I *think* I understand what Mr Sachs is saying. If you’re not contributing, you’re using up stuff and there isn’t anything being done to contribute something new to the community. No new stuff (products, ideas, etc) is stagnation which is a great way to critically injure a community.

As always, just my 2 cents.

Apprenticeships why would anyone do such a thing, where's the reward? a young person isn't going to wait that long for a reward, not in this world of instant grits or a microwave pop tart, iv'e only got 20 seconds to make breakfast i have to go to my 7 year apprenticeship for 10 hours a day and a half day on Saturday, i cant wait to get my papers and a raise to just above minimum wage...

on the supply chain thing, maybe this speaks to unobtanium parts that someone wont let go of even though they are not using them, we have all seen the shows on TV or heard of the guy who has a rusty wreck in his yard, is it for sale " no i'm going to fix it up" how long have you had it? "since 1982" so whats the hold up " i haven't gotten around to it yet, i'm 82 years old and i might do it next year" congratulations you've reach the status of "Curmudgeon"

American PIckers... what a great show, but those old F*cks with tons of **** and would not sell even a rusty little sign when they offered ten times what it was worth... yeah that guy... he's probably got some frame tubing sat in the dust and wont sell it for a handsome profit because he might need it lol

btw iv'e got frames for sale a trek 614, a Puch luzerne and a Raleigh Competition GS, 5 grand each ... oh plus shipping...they all ran when i put them up...

I gotta smile guys aren't we all a bunch of curmudgeons?

I think your .02 is spot on. My issue is applying what you wrote to making an industry, the custom lugged steel bike industry, viable. Maybe it is a bad assumption on my part, but as a leader in the US market, Sachs' writing is not directed at your average schmo taking a framebuilding course and is directed at those in making a business of it. The motivation to do what you wrote in a charity, or as a hobbyist, is not the same, it is highly varied and personal. A business is about making money first and foremost. Sachs made an investment into Long Chen and expects others to follow suit. But again, a builder and supply chain are 2 entirely different matters and putting the onus on someone already in a very difficult business to dive into another is ridiculous. I've been to the Columbus "factory". I use quotes because it is a couple/three guys and as best I can tell, no where near capacity with 1 shift. This is the business Sachs thinks others should invest? I'm going with Danny DiVito instead.

Really ? ?

Looking at the social/economic/political situation here in the US and world wide in general, all y'all are worried about who is going to be making steel frame bikes and old parts ? ?

That's awesome ! ! !

It's interesting that you chose to take a cheap shot and ignore the comments about people hoarding bikes and equipment, preventing others from enjoying vintage bikes or finding parts to complete their own bikes. Collecting vintage bikes is actually quite unusual within the cycling community, as most cyclists view bicycles as tools for pursuing and enjoying the sport, rather than items to collect and hoard.

Most of this is over my head as a monkey with tools, but I am happy someone, somewhere makes steel frames.

If you say so.

All I remember from 8th-grade shop class in my public junior high in suburban New Jersey is that one could make a ring by starting with a large nut and using a grinding wheel and that power saws could take off a finger or two if you’re not careful.

As far as the nostalgia for old times, I guess you didn’t hear about the “maker space” movement of the last 10 years. I count five such facilities within 5 miles of my house, all with a much lower barrier to entry than my 8th-grade shop class.

My kids took TSA, and it was a lot better than the shop classes that I took. I did get a full year of drafting though, there's a sellable skill.
Then I had to do a full year of drafting again in engineering school. Again, quite a skill to have on your resume today.

I've learned a lot from this thread.

I've learned that we should all go out and ride our damn bikes, and worry less about draining the supply pool.

I confess I am a lot more concerned about the gene pool than I am about the supply pool.

I’m still unsure what’s being criticized in the quote at the top of this thread… people building bikes full time for themselves?

Got me to thinking. I wonder if there will be C&V rides in the Vaults?

Other kids learned a lot more than you did in shop classes in public school. Their elimination from public school curriculums was a mistake that our society made, apparently fairly long ago, when I wasn't looking. My wagging finger COULD HAVE saved America, but not anymore. Oh, well.

I have absolutely no idea what the original complaint was, but it warms my heart to see people people discussing it in a relatively civil manner.

I haven’t been able to get on a bike in 7 days, so maybe I’ll get my fix today and then actually add something of value to this thread:lol: