I have two Raleigh Internationals, 24 ½” size, one is a 1971, the other a 1974. They have different geometry. The 74 is frame only so I can't ride it and see the difference. I have read of a geometry change during the 1970’s production run of this model. Does anyone have information on why this change was made, and the resulting effect on the ride and handling?

Here are the differences between the two bikes. All other measurements are the same between the two.

Top tube:
1971–23” 1974–22”

Wheelbase:
1971--41 ½” 1974–41”

Chainstay:
1971–18” 1974–17”

Fork offset appears the same on both, about 2 ½”. Fork curvature is less pronounced on the 74 and starts higher.

Consider marketing.

consider manufacturing efficiency
a 22” top tube used for maybe three seat tube sizes say, one common tube useable, less to track.

thinking a bit more, the downtube might be cut the same as well with an equal length top tube.

1972/73 were years when quite a number of changes were made at Raleigh's Worksop facility. It was the bike boom and that made it difficult to keep up with demand.

When you're able to, would love to see pictures (especially the 1971, as there aren't that many of those).

That '74 was built at the height of the bike boom. I would consider nothing on that bike sacred or a standard or even carefully thought out. (Says the owner of a '73 Competition that missed the braze stage.)

I sold a fellow here a '73 International that I'd built up as a fixed gear after purchasing the frameset at Eroica California in 2022 or so. I hardly rode it since I needed to move it along for mundane reasons, but after he received it he commented on the steep head tube angle. It looked as if they had used a down tube that was somewhat shorter than usual and with the standard 23" top tube to create an unusually steep head tube angle - I think the gentleman measured it at around a shocking 77 degrees.

Carlton was literally throwing these things together already by the time the "bike boom" picked up its pace in the early-'70s. As another member stated, nothing was sacred...

-Gregory

Ron_s I have a 24-1/2" '74 frame that pretty much matches the numbers above (haven't measured the head and seat tube angles), and I believe that gugie's '71 does too (respectively). The top tube on these did seem to be somewhat shorter than the standard 22-1/2" (but not by too much, 22-1/4" on mine) -- not sure why that is. You might be interested in this thread, where some geometry issues are discussed: Show me your 70's vintage Raleigh International

Stated in modern terms, the '71 is a 62cm bike with an enormous 61cm TT, and the '74 has a crazy short 56cm TT. The shorter '74 TT would be easier to sit upright upon.

Wheelbase wise, the International is supposed to have big tire clearance, and went from 46cm chainstays to 43cm. Either should be capable of decent tire size and fenders, but the '71s long stays might make the handling pokey and add unnecessary weight.

It sounds like the International got a little sportier, lighter and easier to fit between '71 and '74. Which seems like the way road bikes (other than touring) continued to trend into the '80s. You can argue the merits of the change, but that 24" top tube wasn't doing most people any favors.

What is the C&V forum coming to?!
How are there no photos in this thread? Well, let me correct that oversight!

I used to own a '71 International, in the 24 1/2" size. Brown.
This was the early 2000's, so it was legally required to be set up as a fixed gear.



At the same time, roughly, I also owned (and still own) a shiny copper '74 International, also a 24 1/2" version.
It came with all of the original gear (even tires), so I kept it that way.



The big(?) difference between them is probably the longer chainstays on the '71. I think the '71 had seatstays with a smaller outer diameter too, but can't confirm.
I have memories of the rear end feeling like it had a bit more lateral flex, but maybe that was partly due to being used as a fixed gear??

Compared to my other vintage road bikes, the Internationals do have more fork rake, and that does cause the steering to feel a bit different. I get used to it, but generally prefer a bit less rake.

Steve in Peoria

A 23" top tube is only 58.5cm. 24" is 61cm.

The stock measurement for the top tube on many taller English frames was 23" all the way back to the '30s, but they shortened them up on many bikes beginning in the '50s through to the end of the bike boom, which is a trend that French and Italian frames did not follow. I come across a lot of 24" to 25.5" British frames with relatively short 22.5" top tubes.

EDIT: The reason, I believe, for the British beginning to sell taller frames with shorter top tubes was the introduction of longer stems into the British market. Until the mid-50s if someone wanted alloy stems they rarely exceeded 3" (or 7.5cm) in length, but as GB and other imported brands began to release 4" and longer stems, it became possible for taller riders to get better control from the additional stem length and they shortened the top tubes to accommodate the changes. Most photos of British time trialists from the '30s-50s show a pretty tight fit over the handlebars, as opposed to the more stretched out arm position that continental racers were getting used to. Those British riders that did want to stretch out during an earlier era either needed longer top tubes (with 24" top tubes being unusual but not out of the question) or else they continued to use stronger steel stems that could be made longer.

I took some notes when I owned the '71 International: top tube was 23 1/2", or 59cm.
My '74 has a top tube of 22 1/2", or 57cm. These were measured center to center.

The main limitation on tire size is probably the width between the chainstays. Mine is about 37mm where the tire passes between them.

That may be true, but I'm not in that group of "most". One of the things I like about these Raleighs is the top tube length. Maybe my legs are too long for my torso?

Steve in Peoria

Yes, I misread earlier and thought you had written 24" for the TT. My mistake.

The width between the chainstays is limited by the chainrings, so you have to move the wheel back to make more lateral clearance.

My 1971 measures:
24.5" Seat CTT
23" Top CTC
17.25" chainstays
41.5 wheelbase

Currently a bare frame, here it is in an earlier configuration:

How did you like the ride of the '71 International? Slower speeds, like on a bike trail, faster speeds like on a road, modest front load like with a Rando type bag (less than 10 pounds)?
Sheldon wrote that the International had an excellent ride, which is why I have been looking for one and acquired one. There is a difference between the 71 and the 74 geometry. The one Sheldon had was a 74. I am trying to decide which to keep. Happy enough with the 71 but I like the Champagne color of the 74. Looking for ride information and handling characteristics of the two bikes.

As the bike should be fit to you, the differences will be very subjective.
all else equal the weighting of the front end will be more on the later bike, the reduced chainstay length is less change than the front center.

Richard Sachs wrote he targeted the use of an 11cm stem. This was no doubt during the era of Cinelli bars being dominant. One has to go to the model 66 for the most forward throw. The others were less and very close to each other.

If you own both, build them up and ride them and decide for yourself which riding characteristics you prefer. Or build one up, ride it, take some notes, swap those parts to the other one, ride it, and compare your notes. Someone else's ride feel will likely not be useful. Fwiw, I've own both years Int'l and didn't feel much of a difference, likely because the frame angles and fork rake were about the same.

Thanks. That is what I suspected. The change in the top tube length for whatever reason was offset by other factors to keep the handling similar to the original. I have been riding the 71 for about 4-5 months. I have enough of everything except garage space to build up the 74 also. f anything the top tube and reach of the 71 has felt a bit long for some reason although certain measurements like seat to handlbars are identical to my 75 Professional, which is a perfect fit.

Top Tube length normally is not involved in handling.

In this case it changes the head tube angle. I have not measured the angles, but since all other tube lengths in the front are the same length in both the 71 and the 74, then since the TT length of the 74 is an inch shorter the head tube angle would have to change also.

What I am looking for is not are there subtle changes between the versions, but was there a major change in handling and performance like there was in the Professional? The Pro was changed in 75 from a criterium racer geometry to a stage racer geometry. Significantly different handling.
I have read one post that the International was designed for a front load. That poster said using a rear load on that version of the International was dangerous. Was one version designed for one purpose, ie, light touring and fun around town, and the other designed as an all purpose bike that could be used for meandering one day and club racing the next?

Certainly, but changing the rake fixes the change in head tube angle to make them ride similarly. And head tube angle is generally changed to vary the wheelbase or reach. It's what prevents massive toe overlap on small bikes and huge wheelbases on tall bikes. But HTAs and TTs aren't changed for handling.

I suppose it might depend on what sort of rear load you are considering. It's not a bike designed for heavy loads (although Jim Merz wrote a whole article in Bicycling about loaded touring on his). I routinely use my Carradice on mine, although probably not carrying more than 5 pounds in it.



Steve in Peoria

this is not that hard, build up both bikes with matching contact points. Swap wheels even to reduce the variables and compare how they feel to you. Then add loads rear or front or both, make notes and arrive at a conclusion.

that the professional was a criterium bike
ever is in my opinion a big mischaraterization.

I measured my 1974 International using an English tape measure and then converted with a factor of 2.54:

seat tube: 21-1/2" (54.6 cm)
top tube: 22" (55.88 cm)
wheelbase: 40-1/8" (101.9 cm)
chain stay: 17" (43.2 cm)

My rear wheel is far back, giving a long chain stay measurement.