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The retail price of a Paramount P13 in 1972, near the end of the Nixon administraition, was $350. I don't know how Schwinn measured the weight of their bikes but it must have included the tool set and the owner's manual on their largest frame because they were never 26 lbs in real life. 22 lbs for a 23" P13 is more like it. European and Japanese bike manufacturers were shrewder marketeers as their advertised weights were 1 or 2 pounds less than reality.
So if you were a teenager and walked into the right bike shop in 1972 with $350 in your hand you were (pretty damn rich to start with) faced with some pretty tasty choices. If a PX10 cost $200 at that time it would be a great deal and I would agree that were paying a premium for the Paramount. More common were the choices that faced your dad: what would $100 buy. In that case the Peugeots, Raleighs, Gitanes and Falcons all offered a pretty sweet bike at around 29 lbs versus closer to 35 lbs for a Schwinn Varsity. As a teenager buying a new bike he also didn't worry about long term parts availability because it would be destroyed or stolen before anything wore out. Fast forward to today. If you show up on a big ride with a nice shiney Peugeot PX10 with constrasting Nervex lugs and a Stronglight Mod 93 crankset you will receive a warm welcome from the other two classic bike aficionados there. No under or over rating allowed. Wear a wool checkerboard Peugeot jersey and black leather bike shoes. |
Originally Posted by mr. peugeot
I don't see how a 26lbs racing bike was top of the line even 35 years ago considering the Peugeot PX10 weighed 21 lbs. A paramount is only 3 lbs lighter than my dad's bottom of the line Peugeot UO8. And of course you have to consider that when Nixon was president, a Paramount cost around $800 while a PX10 could be gotten for 1/4 of that price. Both had Reynolds 531 with Nervex lugs. I can't see how Schwinn could justify the price premium- even with Campagnolo.
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That is 100% false. Schwinn workers in Chicago had never had a union between 1900 and 1980. By 1980, some of the folks building Schwinns in Chicago had been building bikes for twenty, thirty, and forty years. Many of them had parents and grand-parents who built bikes for Schwinn. Then, the "Boy Wonder", Edward Schwinn took control of the company. He made it known that Schwinn wanted to move production to a "low cost" third world country, or a southern "slave labor" zone in the USA. ... It continues to stun me and amaze me that when the owners of American companies run the company into the ground, that SOMEONE will take a slap at the workers and at unions. Thanks. |
Originally Posted by USAZorro
Generally speaking, I am not a fan of Schwinn's, but Paramounts are very nicely made. Up until the bike boom, they were an excellent value too. Peugeot and Raleigh were both able to offer lighter, top quality bicycles (PX-10 and Professional), in quantity, and for less than the Paramount - starting in earnest in the early '70's. This changed the marketplace, and spelled trouble for Schwinn. Obviously, this didn't make the Paramount any less nice of a bicycle, but it's relative value was somewhat diminished.
Today, I think it is fair to say that a Paramount is a very fine bicycle - arguably the best mass-produced, lugged steel bicycle ever made in America. However, I think that people who insist on saying that it is more than that are guilty of overrating it. |
My dad was 17 years old when bought a brand new PX10 in the fall of 1972 for less than $200. Whether the paramount was 23 lbs or 26 lbs, it was an inflated american bike.
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Nixon departed office in August of '74. Schwinn Paramounts were much less than $800., more like $650. with Campagnolo brakes. And that was for new orders, if you had placed an order prior, schwinn, sold the bike for the price at the time of order, not when delivered. Some dealers squeezed some extra profit there, but the mark up was very low for all Schwinns back then.
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
That is 100% false. Schwinn workers in Chicago had never had a union between 1900 and 1980. By 1980, some of the folks building Schwinns in Chicago had been building bikes for twenty, thirty, and forty years. Many of them had parents and grand-parents who built bikes for Schwinn.
Then, the "Boy Wonder", Edward Schwinn took control of the company. He made it known that Schwinn wanted to move production to a "low cost" third world country, or a southern "slave labor" zone in the USA. The company looked at Arkansas, and paid for plans for an Arkansas plant. But, it then bought land in Mississippi, with the goal of moving Chicago production there. Ed also bought a bike plant in what was then communist Hungary and also bought a large share of a bike plant in communist China. Ed thought that using "cheap" communist slave labor was going to be a "bargain" for the Schwinn family. Ed then refused to discuss any agreement with the workers in Chicago that would assure them of a future with Schwinn. He was disrespectful to the folks who had worked for Schwinn long before he was born. In 1980, Schwinn sold over ten million bikes, in large part due to the high quality Chicago workforce. After it was clear that Edward intended to move production out of Chicago, the workers turned to the UAW for help. By the time that the contract with the UAW came into effect, Schwinn had already begun building the plant in Mississippi, and was planning to begin phasing out the Chicago factories. The factories in Mississippi and Hungary were major money losers. Cheap workers are cheap for a reason. The 2,000 workers in Chicago had about 40,000 years of bike building experience. Ed threw that all of that ability and experence away. At that exact same time, both Trek and Cannondale were using American workers to go from being small "custom" shops, to becoming the two largest bike makers in the USA. Within seven years after the final bike was built in Chicago, the Schwinn family lost the company in bankrupcy court. The Mississippi plant and the plant in Hungary were gone. The Schwinn name was just a decal on a communist-Chinese bike. It continues to stun me and amaze me that when the owners of American companies run the company into the ground, that SOMEONE will take a slap at the workers and at unions. I guess when a plane crashes, it could never be the pilot's fault. Gotta be the fault of the union guy who vacuums the carpets. |
Originally Posted by mr. peugeot
My dad was 17 years old when bought a brand new PX10 in the fall of 1972 for less than $200. Whether the paramount was 23 lbs or 26 lbs, it was an inflated american bike.
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Originally Posted by mr. peugeot
My dad was 17 years old when bought a brand new PX10 in the fall of 1972 for less than $200. Whether the paramount was 23 lbs or 26 lbs, it was an inflated american bike.
Derailluers: Peugeot / Simplex (Delrin plastic) vs. Paramount / Campagnolo Cranks: Peugeot / Stronglight vs. Paramount / Campagnolo Pedals: Peugeot / Lyotard vs. Paramount / Campagnolo Hubs: Peugeot / Normandy vs. Paramount / Campagnolo Brakes: Peugeot / Mafac Racer vs. Paramount / Campagnolo (or Weinmann) Freewheel: Peugeot / Atom vs. Paramount / Regina Seatpost: Peugeot / Simplex? vs. Paramount / Campagnolo Bars/Stem: Peugeot / AVA vs. Paramount / Cinelli The PX-10s were great, out-of-the-box budget racers. I bought one new in '74 and loved it for 10 years, but I wouldn't compare it directly to a Paramount and call the Paramount inflated. Bob Hufford Springfield, MO |
Just to clarify the price issue. The suggested retail price for a P13 in 1972 was $352, in 1973 it was $425 and 1974 it was $495. The $800 level was reached in 1978. I took these prices straight off scans in Bob’s Lightweight Data Book.
This graphically illustrates one reason that European bikes were so popular in the U.S. in the 1970’s; runaway inflation. Alan |
Originally Posted by mr. peugeot
My dad was 17 years old when bought a brand new PX10 in the fall of 1972 for less than $200. Whether the paramount was 23 lbs or 26 lbs, it was an inflated american bike.
Schwinn did the opposite during the 1970's. The advertised weight was the actual true weight for the most popular size (usually around size 23, or size 58, which was around 23 pounds for the racing model and around 26 pounds for the touring model. Schwinn deliberately added a pound or two of weight to the Paramount by using a "custom" Reynolds 531 tubeset with a stronger, heavier tubing to eliminate the "flex" that powerful riders experienced on the ultra-light 531 frames. Reynolds made a 531 top tube especially for Schwinn that resisted flex at the head tube better than the standard 531 top tube. Schwinn used a straight gauge, rather than butted, downtube on larger sizes of Paramounts, for the purpose of "tuning" the ride for a powerful 200 pound or 240 pound rider. Schwinn wanted the "best" road bike, which is not necessary the lightest road bike. The advertised price included shipping, assembly, and a tune-up upon delivery, and another free tune-up in thirty days. And, depending on the dealer, and the time of the year, a customer might be able to buy a Paramount for a little UNDER list price. And, the Paramount was "hand made", with one person doing all of the work of putting the frame together. The typical Peugeot sold in the USA was a "mass production" bike, made in batches of 10,000 or 20,000 on a factory assembly line. Most arrived in the USA with French components of such poor quality that some dealers would substitute lower end Campy or Japanese components before selling the bikes. An average Peugeot was basically a lighter European version of bikes such as the Schwinn Continental, but with a light, whippy frame, and fragile wheels, equipped with shoddy components. I don't know of anyone who owned a Paramount who said "Golly, I'd like to trade this in for a Peugeot. What made a Peugeot exciting for a young rider was the enormous "upgrade" from a Schwinn Varsity (which also was burdened by French components around 1970). A Peugeot was not a "tough" as a Varsity (my friends with Peugeots thought of wheel truing as being a daily activity...their bikes were bing "fixed" more than being ridden) but Peugeots were certainly lighter than a Varsity. But, compare a typical Peugeot to a Paramount? That would be like comparing a Fiat with a Mercedes. |
Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
But, compare a typical Peugeot to a Paramount? That would be like comparing a Fiat with a Mercedes.
Now what do you truly think of Masis? (a bike who's mojo I don't really understand and, though it's been explained to me a million times, I probably never will ...) Bob Hufford Springfield, MO |
Originally Posted by BobHufford
Now what do you truly think of Masis? (a bike who's mojo I don't really understand and, though it's been explained to me a million times, I probably never will ...)
Bob Hufford Springfield, MO |
Originally Posted by BobHufford
No, that would still be like comparing a Peugeot to a Mercedes -- just the automobile version. ;)
Now what do you truly think of Masis? (a bike who's mojo I don't really understand and, though it's been explained to me a million times, I probably never will ...) Bob Hufford Springfield, MO Bob just conjured up the big kahuna of the cranky&vintage clan, I'm expecting R. Brian Baylis, Chuck S. , Joe Starck and Jim Allen to join in here. and we can expect a word or two from MasiTim. . . What do I think of Masi? California or Italy? California was the breeding ground for some of the best silverbraze slingers the west has ever seen (Brian, Joe, Jim, and a whole lot more). I think a lot of that has to do with Mario's influence and a pride of workmanship that was lacking back in the old country. Don't get me wrong I think Faliero's bikes were the bees knees but when did he last pick up a torch? then there's the issue of contract builders. The US builders had something to prove and a passion for what they were doing. The California Masis appear cleaner than the old country (shorelines, brazing, filemarks etc.). That's the mojo imho, and breaking away didn't hurt, nor did the Mario legend. next a head to head shootout DeRosa, Colnago, Masi, Tommasini in a cage match. Marty |
Carlsbad Masi Serial number M6 is a Confente. Even has the decals.
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Originally Posted by lotek
Oh jeez lookout. . .
Bob just conjured up the big kahuna of the cranky&vintage clan, I'm expecting R. Brian Baylis, Chuck S. , Joe Starck and Jim Allen to join in here. and we can expect a word or two from MasiTim. . . I've no doubt that the CaliMasis are great bikes. It's just that I don't get how they are so much greater than other marques. Their mojo seems to be a bit beyond the bikes to me. Just a not so well informed opinion I'm sure ... (I bet it will be better informed soon -- though I've spent years on the CR list, so I've heard it all before). Bob Hufford Springfield, MO |
Originally Posted by BobHufford
I've no doubt that the CaliMasis are great bikes. Its California, please. There are California Masi's. There are also Carlsbad Masi's, Rancho Santa Fe Masi's, and San Marcos Masi's. All subsets, but Cali just does not work. There are other great brands, thankfully not everyone is chasing the same one or the prices would really be nuts. |
Originally Posted by number6
Lets start there. If one lives in California (especially born in)...
Its California, please. My apologies. I'm just trying to stir things up a bit all in the name of fun. I didn't mean to offend. Some of my favorite bikes were built in California. :D I'll go home now ... Bob |
When I actualy raced in the SF Valley in the early/mid-70's I raced one of those heavy U08's. A lot of those Italian/French/British bikes and a fair share of Paramounts got a view of my backside on every climb because I was a superior climber - the fact my bike weighed a few pounds more mattered less than I only weighed 125 and most of them went at least 135 and averaged 140-155.
In those days, I would do fun rec rides with a group called the Westlake Wheelmen up at Ventura/LA County line. Several of them had beautiful chrome Paramounts. At that time - around 1974-75, a chrome Paramount was to die for!!!! But they cost a lot more than my yellow U08. Man, they were just works of art - the chrome Paramounts. Now - can someone answer this - why is every darn nice looking 1970's vintage Paramount on eBay size 63 or bigger :) Did only extremely large tall men buy these bikes? I have honestly not yet seen a 56cm-58cm sized chrome Paramount from that era on eBay ! : )
Originally Posted by mr. peugeot
I don't see how a 26lbs racing bike was top of the line even 35 years ago considering the Peugeot PX10 weighed 21 lbs. A paramount is only 3 lbs lighter than my dad's bottom of the line Peugeot UO8. And of course you have to consider that when Nixon was president, a Paramount cost around $800 while a PX10 could be gotten for 1/4 of that price. Both had Reynolds 531 with Nervex lugs. I can't see how Schwinn could justify the price premium- even with Campagnolo.
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Originally Posted by markwebb
Now - can someone answer this - why is every darn nice looking 1970's vintage Paramount on eBay size 63 or bigger :) Did only extremely large tall men buy these bikes? I have honestly not yet seen a 56cm-58cm sized chrome Paramount from that era on eBay !
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Originally Posted by BobHufford
My apologies. Bob |
Originally Posted by mr. peugeot
I've been reading everything i can find on Schwinn Paramounts. While they were well made bikes, it seems they were quite heavy for a road/racing bike at 26lbs. The Paramount is frequently touted as the top American racing bike of its time, but does that really say much? Bike racing in America during the 60s and 70s was not exactly world class. I even read somewhere that in 1979, the new head of Schwinn ordered the paramount program shut down because the bike was so antiquated. any thoughts?
Todays boutique industry today makes its livelihood reproducing thier versions of Paramounts ! Not being a racing bike has nothing to do with the classicity of the Reynolds UberTuber ! :D Lets see how many specialty company's are producing boutique repro's of Cervelo's and Foodji Alohas in 2100 !!! :D |
what bob meant was Kali Masi's. The Masi of the Hindu Destroyer.
I have a Carlsbad Masi, and a '73 Paramount. Both weigh about the same, both fit about the same, both are limited edition, hand-built (not production!) bicycles. I like 'em both, but I ride the Masi more... |
Peugeots are a dime a dozen. I see them in thrift and junk stores frequently. Paramounts I don't. Hmmm. Would that have anything to do with values? I have a 1979 Peugeot, And a 1978 Paramount. Comaring these two bikes is laughable.
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Originally Posted by mr. peugeot
My dad was 17 years old when bought a brand new PX10 in the fall of 1972 for less than $200. Whether the paramount was 23 lbs or 26 lbs, it was an inflated american bike.
Your dad got a heckuva deal. Here's the 1973 PX10 catalog page in Dutch. The weight is shown as 10.2 kg, which equals 22.5 pounds The price is shown as f. 828-, which at the 1973 exchange rate of 2.78 f. per US$ would be $297.84. The 1973 P13-9 Professional Road Racing Paramount weighed 23 pounds and retailed for $350.00. Personally, I'd have gladly paid the $52.16 premium just to get the chromed Nervex lugs and the Campagnolo components. The weight is essentially the same for both bikes. BTW, the 1972 PX10 price was f. 748- and the 1972 exchange rate was f. 3.21 per US$, so the U.S. price for a 1972 PX10 would have been $233.00. http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...eugeotPX10.jpg |
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