Well, we've beaten this one down.

I think Eisentrauts are better than Paramounts (and, of course, that rhymes)!

If the rhymes begin, the thread must end ...

Amen!

The Paramount at any given time frame needs to be evaluated on its own merit and a blanket statement shouldn't be given. The Paramount has always been a great high end bike. I started riding in the mid 50's and always lusted after the paramounts but it was just a little too expensive. I bought my first bike an Allegro Special, followed by many bikes. In 1969 I looked at the market and came up with Masi, Cinelli, and Paramount as the top 3 choices at the time (this puts the Paramount in the elite class of bikes). I went with Cinelli and still have it today along with 6 other bikes. In 1990 I bought a Waterford Paramount. It wasn't overrated...infact when I rode group rides in the late 90's people would "oh and ah" my lugged candyapple red paramount. Record equiped and SLX Columbus tubing it was light as any bike for the times. Paramount also wasn't ever a "mass" produced bike in its good years in the normal sense of the word. So no it isn't over rated. Today I ride a TiCarbon and a Columbus Foco tubing ultralight wonders and enjoy them...but I also ride my classic steel bikes as well all between 3k and 5k per year (down considerably from my younger days). I enjoy a quality bike no matter what era it is from. The old steel bikes had soul and still garner looks and comments from the nouveau crowd who ride the plastic fantastics and SR-71 metallic wonders.

Not entirely true. Mismanagement maybe, union trouble YES, failure to change absolutely NO. Schwinn was a leader in outsourcing. They gave the consumer a very good product at a fair price. Those Japanese built bikes were second to none in their respective classes. As for technology
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/varsity.html

Also follow Sheldon Brown's links on Schwinn in general. They were actually a very forward thinking company.I believe Schwinn was ahead of their time in many respects. See http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chicago-schwinns.html

Tim

I've forgotten more about cars than you will ever know. PSA group is now the largest car company in Europe- bigger than VW. Americans always think that whatever Germans make is so superior and it isn't. I've seen brand new benz cars with piston slap and i've never seen a bmw that didn't crack a head, snap a timing chain or have insufferable front end shimmy. What you don't know makes you whom you are.

I think there was a little (or a lot) of blame to go around and all parties were somewhat responsible.

I see Schwinn as the Volkswagen of the bike industry back in the seventies. They waited too long to bring imported bikes into their lineup, and produced the Varsity for way too long. They needed to modernize their factory back in the sixties and shoudn't have gotten complacent during the big boom years of the early seventies. Then when the BMX crazed hit they just sat on thier hands.

Was the union responsible? Maybe partly. I think management was lethargic and stupid, which allowed the union to get a toehold, something that was unlikely to happen before Ed started mismanaging.

I have had a great interest in the late automaker Studebaker, who closed US operations in 1963. I once heard a line from the one of the local UAW leaders regarding their demise. Paraphrased, it goes something like this... "A union is strong only as management is weak. Studebaker management failed to manage." This pretty much sums up what probably happened at Schwinn, coupled with the buying public becoming much more sophisticated and in light of unbeatable competition from the far east.

Do I wish Schwinn had lived? Hell YES!

Are you the EURO of the vintage forum? Btw this is a bicycle forum, not a forum for crappy autos

I'd be inclined to think that you are the sum of what you know and what you don't know. I, for example, am rapidly forgetting what little I ever knew, so am heading rapidly towards becoming no one at all...not that I ever was much of anybody to begin with.

At this rate, my next job could be secretary of defense.

I have forgotten more than anyone I know, so I must be the smartest person around?

I've forgotten what we are supposed to be discussing.

In rather rash terms, the topic of our discussion was as follows:

Peugeots rule, Paramounts stink
or
Paramounts rule, Peugeots stink

...and I believe that the general consensus was mainly of the latter. ;)

Take care,

-Kurt

P.S. to Peugeot owners: How many of you fellows keep super glue in your saddlebag for Simplex derailer repairs? :p

I got a big kick out of the young guy on the new Litespeed oohing and aahing over my Paramount last week.

Dick,

I've had similar experiences. They seem to like the chrome Nervex lugs. :)

They also comment on my grey hair. Maybe chromed Nervex lugs and grey hair go together? :D

They must. I have two bikes with chromed Nervex lugs and my hair is turning grey, too. Cause and effect, or unlucky coincidence? :mad:

OK, I am a bit of a car geek too. I can't let this pass without commenting.

Peugeot, as in a joint venture of Peugeot, Renault and Volvo came up with the truly dreadful PRV engine that caused many Volvo owners to consider buying something else next time. This is the same engine that went in the ill-fated De Lorean car, too. Those engines had an oiling problem at the chain driven overhead cams, resulting in rapid cam failure.

To keep this on topic, I can vouch for the fact that my Paramount is better than the PRV engine.

Nyaaaah!

"P.S. to Peugeot owners: How many of you fellows keep super glue in your saddlebag for Simplex derailer repairs?"

Never had one go.

"The Peugeots that won the Tour between around 1955 and 1985 were NOT the same Peugeots that were sold in the USA. The Peugeots that won the Tour were NOT made in the Peugeot factory. They were "custom", hand-made bikes made with Reynolds 531 tubing, and had Campy drivetrains."

Incorrect. Thevenet's bikes used a Simplex/Stronglight drivetrain, Super LJ to be exact. The cranks were Stronglights on his bikes; take a good look. I'm not completely sure about the bikes ridden by others in the TDFs, but the 67 models look to have a standard French setup, Pingeon's bike clearly has the Simplex derlin shifters and what looks to be a SL crank, can't tell from the shots I've got of Simpson's (he prefered barcons, which look like Simplex models to moi). Both clearly ride with Mafac brakes, which would hint towards a more standard French setup.

edit: Further research has revealed Thevenet's bikes were in fact stock. It would also seem that Simpson's World Championship (1965), Merckx's World Championship (1967), and Pingeon's TDF victory (1967) were on stock PXs, as they seem to be standard Peugeot team issue for the time. I don't doubt their frames were built with extra care as team frames; but I've found nothing to contradict this, and visual evidence of TDF photos from the era backs it up.

Now you guys can pump up them fine, fine Paramounts all you want, but that's a pretty impressive group of victories. Don't knock the Pugs and the French makers to pump up the Paramounts, they stand up pretty well on their own. end edit

well said, Ed doesn't strike me as a person who deserved his birthright.

Scooper,

Does that mean I'll turn grey when I make mine road worthy late this spring? :eek: Just because it sports those beautiful chrome lugs. :( Or will it be from all the rush of excitment when riding a hand built, custom classic that has endured the test of time? :D I'll hear your confessions now!

Bob

Huh? He just said above that your weight info is all wrong. P-13 racers were 21lbs, track bikes were 18lbs and fully-loaded tourers were 25lbs. Also...Schwinn Paramounts costing $800 when "Nixon was president" is nonsense. They cost around $350 in the early 70's. TRY AGAIN.

Paramount was beautiful, well-made and competetitive in every aspect until the latter 70's...plain and simple.

True confession, Pastor Bob; the bike got old and so did I. I suppose, in a way, we've both endured the test of time. ;)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7...H7106small.jpg

We've had 4 PRV engines and all of them lasted over 400,000km. The reason why Volvo had problems with that motor was that they suggested oil change intervals of 5-6000 miles. Mind you, this was motor oil of the late 70's, not the synthetics or otherwise advanced oils of today. Of course your cams will wear prematurely if you keep running your engine on broken down oil. I have NEVER seen a PRV crack a head, throw a rod, break a chain or even use oil. And by the way, a PRV engined car finished 12th overall at les Vingt Quatre Heures du Mans 1980. More importantly, the 1912 Peugeot grand prix car's engine was the first to employ 4 valve heads and twin cams.

Even $350 is too much for a bike that lacked the cache of world class racing victories. And the paramount would have more than doubled in price by the end of the 70s anyway.

To quote Werner Klemperer from Hogan's Heroes:

"Your protest has been noted!"

-Kurt

"Even $350 is too much for a bike that lacked the cache of world class racing victories. And the paramount would have more than doubled in price by the end of the 70s anyway."

As the owner of three PXs, including a 67 in remarkable condition, if anyone wants to toss a Paramount my way (62cm), I will gladly take it. I'd probably pay 350$ for it no problem. The paramounts I've found have been just a nibbin too tiny, to my eternal disgust. Bah.

Seriously, cachet comes in different forms, and the P-mounts have one all their own. I'll gladly take one, and it wouldn't take a thing from my Peugeots. Now, I probably wouldn't trade one of my PXs (certainly not the 67) for a Paramount... like it too much, far too cool. The Schwinnies can flame me all they want for this last statement, which probably seems completely ridiculous to them. Oh, well.