Not trying to bash the Paramount, but do realise that the pre '62 (or is it '63?) models were a bit heavier:

Cranks: Stronglight steel double
Brakes: Weinmann 999 standard, Campagnolo sidepulls optional
Seatpost: Campy Gran Sport optional, alloy standard
Bars/Stem: M.K. International Alloy bars/Eiam steel stem

The Stronglight doubles no doubt added at least a pound or two extra, and the stem probably half a pound. I am not familiar with the wheels used during this era.

-Kurt

I bought a chrome plated all campy paramount in 1973 for a TransCanada bike trip. It had a triple chair ring, and the biggest rear deraillier you ever saw, which had a recoil like a colt 45, along with titainium pedal cages!
The light wt 'racing chain that wore out in the first 300 miles.
With a rather conventional panier system for the day, I had rear flat after rear flat , and broke rear stokes like crazy. (I had logged several camping miles on my old Varsity without a single flat or broken spoke, and the wheel was out of true! Never even thought I could fix it! )
No matter how many pro spoke jobs with every spoke type and configuration, with every rim type ( there weren't many options in those days), there was no improvement from atlantic to pacific.
The frame was pretty springy and a great ride unloaded.
SO, if your into old paramounts , think twice about using it for touring with a load.

Allow me to clarify: You can't fix it. It is virtually impossible to true a Schwinn Tubular S-6 rim (used on the Varsitys) to a reasonably satisfactory extent.

They are among the worst rims ever made - I don't care how strong they are at the sides, the spoke area was never reinforced, and as a result, the spokes would warp the metal at the holes. Their chroming and finishing were trash as well.

...and who ever thought of that knurling? Was it a precaution to make sure that rust would form in between the crevices where the chroming and nickling didn't get a good hold?

-Kurt

"Now - can someone answer this - why is every darn nice looking 1970's vintage Paramount on eBay size 63 or bigger Did only extremely large tall men buy these bikes? I have honestly not yet seen a 56cm-58cm sized chrome Paramount from that era on eBay !"

Basically, most of the cool, average sized bikes are already in someone's collection. However, I bought my all chrome, triple, virtually unused '73 Paramount in my size a few years ago on ebay for 450. shipped. I replaced the boat anchor Gran Tourismo, the Weinmann centerpulls and the stem mounted shifters however...

Sold a nice black '72 recently locally for 500. It was a little small for me.


"No matter how many pro spoke jobs with every spoke type and configuration, with every rim type ( there weren't many options in those days), there was no improvement from atlantic to pacific."

That's a wheel builder problem, not a Paramount problem. I'm big and heavy, and I think I've broken 2 spokes since 1972, when I started building my own wheels. Not that I'm that great, but it is an art.

Peugeot have had 11 Tour de France victories between 1904 and 1987. Can you say the same of Schwinn? Of course not.

Every Mercedes i have seen has had serious engine trouble- new and old. All 3 of the benz cars my parents had growing up needed overhauls or new motors by 200,000km. Out of half a dozen subsequent Peugeots, we never experienced engine failure or even oil consumption at 300-400,000km.

[QUOTE=Chuckk]The Schwinn Dealer sizing system at work, the bigger the bike, the bigger the man.

Smaller Paramounts do come up on ebay, but not many in the last 23 months or so.

Uh, maybe the fact that the Tour de France is held in France and that Peugeot is a French-built bike has historically skewed the number of participating Peugeots. In terms of the percentage of bikes that are Peugeots in a given race, the odds would be pretty good that a Peugeot would win. I'm surprised it was only eleven victories.

Heck, it wasn't until Greg Le Mond won the TdF in 1986 that there was a non-european winner.

Can we claim BMX victories then? :p (or Six-Day races!)

Bob Hufford
Springfield, MO

Now I've offended Peugeot car owners as well. For that I also apologize.

Bob Hufford
Springfield, MO

OK. Your dad is fifty years old and has had three M-Bs and six Peugeots, each with between 200,000 and 400,000 km. He drives a lot, huh?

The Peugeots that won the Tour between around 1955 and 1985 were NOT the same Peugeots that were sold in the USA. The Peugeots that won the Tour were NOT made in the Peugeot factory. They were "custom", hand-made bikes made with Reynolds 531 tubing, and had Campy drivetrains. In fact, the Peugeot's that won the Tour in that era were essentially used the same Reynolds tubing and same Campy components as the Paramounts built during that same era. No ordinary Frenchman ever rode THOSE Reynolds 531/Campy Peugeots...they were made in small numbers for the Pro teams.

The typical Peugeot bike sent to the USA in the 1970's had mass produced factory frames using French tubing. And they had "all French" drivetrains...components so bad they were often replaced before the initial sale. The ONLY parts used on a part on an average Peugeot that were used on the "Tour" modes was the decals.

Peugeot autos in the USA? The last Peugeot auto I saw in Houston was purchased by a friend of mine in 1988. He was proud of it, and took three or four of his friends to lunch to show it off. When we got back to work, the rear doors would not open. Today, he denys he ever owned it. But, there were witnesses...Today, thousands of Mercedes and BMW's made in the '60's, '70's, and '80's are seen on the streets of Houston. Zero Peugeots. I was shocked to find out that the Yugo was a copy of a Fiat. Based on its "durability", I was sure it was a French design.

Alcyon had more than that, but who remembers them? (Well, I wish someone would as the CR site needs the info ...)

Can we talk about Motobecanes now? I really liked the '81 Team Champion that I had for awhile (he says as he tries to change the subject)

"Can't we all just get along?" -- RK

Bob Hufford
Springfield, MO

How dare anyone criticize the holly grail, especially on this forum!

Paramounts overrated? In a word, no. I picked up a 1967 touring model (frame, fork and headset only) on eBay a year and a half or so back with the idea of making it a commute bike. It's pretty much all I ride now. Very comfortable ride, very forgiving, very stable, and it corners on downhills like a BMW. Simply a great frame, even after 38+ years.

Re: Peugeots - Eddy Merckx (at that point a former Peugeot team member) once talked about attacking Roger Pingeon (then a current Peugeot team member) on a descent. According to Merckx, one of the reasons he did it was because he knew from experience that Peugeots did not descent well. (THe fact that King Eddy was a brilliant descender didn't hurt, either.) PX-10's and PY-10's were pretty decent production bikes - good enough to get Pingeon a TdF win and Bernard Thevenet 2 of them - and they were a good bargain, but let's not go overboard. Paramounts were and remain better frames.

Professional racing has very little to do with the quality of production bikes, other than trickle down technology. Saying a Peugeot is superior to a Paramount because of TDF wins is like saying all Trek bikes are superior to all other bikes currently made because of race wins.

"The Schwinn Dealer sizing system at work, the bigger the bike, the bigger the man"

It wasn't just Schwinn Dealers. As Chuckk has suggested, it seems to have been a broadly accepted philosophy during that era. I'm 6'0" and when bought my first 10-speed in 1972 was sold a 25" frame by a non-Schwinn shop. This past summer, I bought a new road bike (the first one since '72) and it has a 58cm frame. I'm comfortable on both. The geometry of frames has changed.

Regards,
Alan

The only Peugeots that are being compared to Paramounts are the ones that came with 531 frames. It would be pretty lame to try to compare an entry level Peugeot to a top of the line Schwinn.

You don't know much about Peugeot bicycles, but I agree with you about their unreliable autos.

They make great pepper mills, though.

I believe that Bernard Thevenet's 1975 TdF winning PX-10 was all French except for a Campy RD. Daniel Rebour's drawing appears to confirm this: http://www.mindspring.com/~d.g1/peugeot.htm

Greg Lemond's TdF winning Gitane was a production bike. http://www.gitaneusa.com/lemond.asp

That article says that Lemond's 1983 World Championship bike was production. That was when he was pretty new to that level of racing. By the time he was a team leader and TDF winner I would bet his bikes were quite different.

SS

Does that make Trek better than Seven, better than Merlin, better than Serotta etc, etc, etc.

I think its also difficult to talk about Paramounts generically without reference to time frame. They were made for over 50 years. At different periods their quality and value compared to competitors had to vary.

The Paramount OS made in the late 80's at Waterford was arguably one of the very best bikes of its time. It played a large role in using oversized shaped tubes. Very light, stiff, and great ride.

The most overated bike I ever owned was a 1972 PX10, purchased new at Mulrooney's for $249. I couldn't trim the front derailleur so it wouldn't rub the chain on hard climbs or sprints; thinking the crappy Simplex derailleur and Stronglight cranks were to blame, I switched them out for Campy NR. That didn't fix the problem either; the whole frame was to blame. I sold that bike in 1975 and never regretted it.
In 1973 I bought my first Paramount, a P14 track bike. I still have it and ride it at least once a week, and it is still a joy to look at, with it's nicely shaped and filed lugs. The original Campy bottom bracket and hub bearings are still going strong, with many tens of thousands of miles on them, and the 531 frame hasn't "softened up" a bit in 33 years. The steel track bars and stem were replaced with aluminum Cinelli many years ago, and the bike is now equipped with Profit clipless pedals for the sake of comfort.
My 1974 P13 is now living a life of genteel retirement. I upgraded the components on that bike during the 80's and continued riding it almost daily. Several years ago, I decided to return it to all of it's original Nuovo Record splendor. I'd ride it more now, but the toe straps make my big feet hurt, and I don't want to wear out the Detto Pietro shoes that go with the bike so nicely (and are hard to replace).
For the sake of this thread, I just weighed both bikes. The all original ten speed is just a shade over 22 pounds, and the fixie is right at 19 pounds. Both frames are 24" (Schwinn didn't mess around with fancy-shmancy "centimeters" back in the 70's).

carpbum,

Thanks for the real world comparison, including the 1972 PX10 price ($249) and the Paramount weights. My 1971 P13-9 also weighs 22 pounds, although the specs say 23 pounds.

The OP started out by saying that Paramounts the same vintage as his dad's 1972 PX10 weighed 26 pounds and cost $800, and that his dad's PX10 weighed 21 pounds and cost less than $200. In fact, the 1972 Peugeot catalog says the PX10 weighed 22.5 pounds, so the P13 and the PX10 weighed essentially the same. The January 1, 1972, Schwinn Retail Price List on Bob Hufford's website lists the price of the 1972 P13-9 as $352, not $800.

The OP obviously thinks the PX10 is a better deal than the Paramount. I don't. We're each entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.

I just think it's important to stick to the facts when making comparisons like this.

to quote Scooper

Could you elaborate on this one? Not trying to start a fight or anything. It just seems to be one of those knee jerk reactions like "Oh, if only he would have worn a helmet he would have survived the collision with a dump truck" From what I've heard it was mismanagement and a failure to change with the times that caused Schwinns demise.