CardiacKid

I was at a LBS yesterday looking at some new bikes when Chad, the salesman, started talking to me. I told him that I was thinking about buying a new bike or modernizing the components of my old Pinarello.
He proceeded to go on about what a bad idea it would be to put new components on that old worn out frame. All frames, whether steel, aluminum or carbon wear out and become very flexy with age and my frame is probably shot. Since it was Friday and I was in a good mood, I laughed and told him that my experience was different and left. I doubt I will be going back there for a while. Apparently I did something to make him think that I was a sucker, ripe for the picking.

plodderslusk

This is a very weird idea that is quite widespread. I have an old 531 1963 racing frame with penciltype rear stays that are among the stiffest steel frames I have ridden. Could someone with a degree in metallurgy please explain why steel frames simply cannot go "soft" with use and age. They can break, bend or come apart at the lugs but no way can steel "go soft".

Scooper

He was just doing what salesmen do.

Poguemahone

It's the your bike is crap, let us sell you a new one scam. Practiced by a disturbing number of LBSs. Your salesman is pretty much full of it, I'd wager, and I'd think about finding another LBS. Unless you are in my town, in which case all the LBSs do this; you're doomed, sorry.

Rabid Koala

I could maybe see that with carbon, and aluminum would just snap, but steel? I don't think so.

the beef

Nah, your frame is fine. He was just being a salesman.

cudak888 

Salesman's Tactic: "Steel Frames Wear Out"

#1: 1972: Bike Boom. Sell bicycle to customer.
#2: 1979: Tell customer not to polish frame for fear of "wearing" the metal down.
#3: 2006:
Situation "A" - Customer drags in greasy, grimy Bike Boom relic into shop. Salesman states it as being a hunk of junk. Suggest new Trek, Specialized or Cannondale.
Situation "B" - Customer rolls in mint Bike Boom machine into shop. Salesman states that the frame is unsafe due to the extensive Meguiars Polish and Wax used. Suggest new Trek, Specialized or Cannondale.

-Kurt

Old School

An experienced salesperson would have determined in a few questions your intent to update the older frame with new components instead of wasting your time criticizing the idea in order to sell you a new bike.

OLDYELLR

I've seen bike brochures with 25 year and lifetime warranties for steel frames. No way reputable manufacturers would make such claims if a frame that's not defective could be "used up" after 15 years.

cudak888 

Any chance Basso has such a warranty?

Take care,

-Kurt

luker

look. your old pinarello is probably worn out. Send it to luker's rest home for old pinarellos, so that it can live out its few remaining years in comfort - we have a complete medical staff standing by!

stronglight

Ah, yes. Sadly, I'm afraid the salesman is absolutely correct. I'm surprised you haven't noticed your frame flexing completely out of control ~ Worse still, 15 year old Campy Record components are notorious for suddenly failing and could snap at any moment causing you serious injury or even death!

However, just because I'm a kind hearted guy, I'll offer you a couple bucks, just to take that Italian rust-bucket death-trap off your hands - so you can purchase a much more reliable domestic bike like a Trek or Cannondale. I realize I will be stuck with your dangerous relic, but it's better that I toss it in with my own 40 year old Frejus (which is, obviously, also another safety hazard) and keep the roads safe for Sensible riders... ones with NEW bikes.

Sorry, just kidding. I think you should go back to the LBS and bust the guy's knee cap. In fact, use an old Silca frame pump with a Campy steel pump head - you probably have one... with "worn out steel".

CardiacKid

The really scary thing is that I have a 20 year old set of golf clubs. So I have to buy a new bike and a new set of irons. I love my Ping Eye 2s as much as my bike. I'm devastated that I have been using this worn out junk for so long.
The good thing is that this was the first time I went into this shop and only went there because fellow BFers had said how good it was. Of course, they are all riding new bikes. I doubt the guys at this shop have ever seen a freewheel.
They don't even sell steel bikes.

mswantak

I hope you didn't have to drive across any dangerous old-steel suspension bridges on the way back to your home that has deadly old-steel trusses in it.

CardiacKid

Now that you mention it, the shops logo includes a sketch of the 25 year old steel bridge, next to the shop.

cudak888 

God forbid their roof has steel beams. I can see them flexing now.

Too bad they didn't make those nice, new, flexless carbon fiber roofs when the shop building was built...

-Kurt

Scooper

plodderslusk

They do not have a warranty, but I think they are made to last( having two Basso Lotos I really hope so).
They rustproofed internally according to the 92 broshure : https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/basso92/4.jpg

OLDYELLR

Looks like they're a little more conservative, but their 3-year warranty is on the whole bike. We all know the frame is the longest lasting component.

https://www.yellowjersey.org/basso.html

cyclodan

I have had this discussion with a couple of guys who were not trying to sell me anything. Both of them, long time bike mechanics, insist that steel frames do indeed "go soft" with age. Now I'm 140 lb. soaking wet and I don't flex a bike that much and I think these guys are both seeing the effects of their own increased mass on their old bike.
Could someone reply authoritatively on this matter or point me toward a good source of information regarding the aging of steel (or other material for that matter) bicycle frames?

stronglight

Opens up a whole new arena for litigation (especially if you live in California).

"No officer, I did NOT lose control of my car; obviously the steel just wore out and the car flexed. Good heavens man, don't you know this commonly happens to even bicycle frames? Well, just think of the stresses which my 200 bhp engine had put upon the fragile steel chassis of THIS vehicle!"

Well, in any case, I think I shall do just like the famous Third Little Pig. I'll now begin to make my bikes with bricks. Bricks do not flex... Hmmm, but, they do wear down. ~ Ah, yes, better still: Concrete. Yes, the Romans invented and built with concrete over 2000 years ago... (apparently, after abandoning their experiments with steel).

[Actually, a friend had re-painted his commuter bike with a textured aerosol-can product called FleckstoneŽ. It basically looks like concrete or granite. Very durable finish, does not easily scratch, stain or even show dirty finger marks... but, still that problem of the underlying steel frame wearing out.]

hiromian

1. it is just now getting broken in.
2. It's Italian. It will never wear out.
3. It's the coolest bike the salesman ever saw and he does'nt even know it.

stronglight

The one person I can think of who could (and would probably be happy to) expound interminably and authoritatively on the subject is Jobst Brandt, author of the book "The Bicycle Wheel" He has a degree in mechanical engineering form Stanford, has worked for Porsche in Germany and for numerous other noteworthy companies. He could probably give you a Finite Element Computer Analysis on the subject (as is used for the structural analysis of things like aircraft, bridges, watch springs, ball bearings, etc.). He would be able to explain everything for you in terms of modulus of elasticity, ultimate tensile strength, and fatigue limits - (all the concepts which by primitive monkey-brain will never be able really comprehend).

Above all, Mr. Brandt is a VERY serious cyclist, a bike commuter and a devoted touring cyclist (I've read accounts of some of his travels through the Alps). Perhaps someone can offer contact info for him. The last I had heard, he was living in Palo Alto, CA and working for Hewlitt-Packard Labs - but that was a while ago.

John E

I have broken two steel frames through use-generated metal fatigue: a 1971 Nishiki Competition (bottom bracket shell, 20 years, 40k miles/65k km) and a 1974 Peugeot UO-8 (also 20 years, unknown miles, right chainstay at the clearance dimples). Neither failure was in any way crash-threatening or dangerous to me.

See my signature: I regularly ride bikes older than many BF members, and even my newest bike is now past the 15-year mark.

Scooper

A while back, I came across THIS series of articles on bicycle metallurgy by Scot Nichol. Although it was written over ten years ago, the part on steel really hasn't changed.

In the introduction to the series, Nichol says:

Fatigue Strength

Guess what? This is another important property to consider but, once again, not by itself. Fatigue failure occurs by applying cyclic stress of a maximum value less than the static tensile strength of the material ... until your specimen fails. This can be a cool test, because the alternating stress mimics vibrations and impacts that happen when you ride your bicycle down the long and winding road.

The fatigue strength itself is a measure of the stress at which a material fails after a specific number of cycles. What's tough though, is designing the proper test. Again, a bicycle is a complex puzzle to consider. There is no standard test for fatigue. Another kink is that fatigue tests are done by cyclic loading of similar stress, whereas the loads you apply to your bicycle parts are uniform.

Ferrous alloys (a.k.a. steel) and titanium have a threshold below which a repeating load may be applied an infinite number of times without causing failure. This is called the fatigue limit, or endurance limit. Aluminum and magnesium don't exhibit an endurance limit, meaning that even with a miniscule load, they will eventually fail after enough load cycles.