I've got the sickness. In a year, I've gone from not owning a road bike, to riding a 1987 Japanese bike equipped with Shimano 105, with three more bikes in various states of being rebuilt: a 1972 Bob Jackson, a 1974-ish Italvega Nuovo Sport, and today's acquisition, a 1980-ish Peugeot PKN-10 (hey ... twenty bucks ... I HAD to).

I never really compared frame workmanship before, but it really is striking how much variation there is. From the bottom up:

1. The Peugeot - Wow. For a 531 bike that was just a notch down from the top of their pecking order, I'm pretty stunned at how sloppy the work is, particularly the chrome and paint.

2. The Italvega - This is a mid-level bike made by Torpado for an American importer, with the main tubes reputedly of some species of Columbus tubing, but with plain-wrap, non-Campy dropouts. I got it as a frameset, but new, it was equipped with Suntour VGT and Weinmann 999, to give you an idea of its level. Even so, it's obviously well made, with clean lugwork and brazing, solid chrome that's lasted through thirty yearsand a bad rattlecan paint job ,but nothing spectacular.

3. The 1987 Universal Japanese Bike - Tange 900 tubing, very precisely, cleanly, surgically, and soullessly constructed.

4. The Bob Jackson - Work of art. I've stripped the frame to bare metal, and part of me wishes that I could keep it that way. I don't know how, but you can tell that it was handmade by a craftsman just by looking at it. It's like the difference between handmade hardwood furniture, and the stuff you see on the floor of a department store.

Just thought I'd share that ...

That sounds like exactly what I'd expect from all of your examples, but now to the important question: how do they RIDE? Cause even though the Peugeot has the sloppiest craftsmanship, I would bet it's not the worst ride in the bunch, and there are readers of this forum who would actually take THAT bike over all the others, well maybe not a 1980, but... Nice that you got a BJ from the early years when he really was making works of art...you could TRY to clearcoat the bare metal, but most clears will not protect well enough to prevent rust "spiderwebs" from eventually forming, though I might try for a clear Imron or powdercoat, if such exist and especially if done by a pro right after blasting before moisture can be trapped.

yeah your assessment is bang on, the absolute slopiest bike I have ever had was a 1975 Jeunet made of 531, simplex DOs, it was hideous!!! brass everywhere! no thinning nothing was clean....

your japanese assessment is pretty good, the brazing is generally acceptably clean but not much thining, basic...

then you move on to the italian jobs and they are expertly thinned with no sign of brass lumps etc... I have to say though my nicest bikes are my 1981 Marinoni and my 1992 Marinoni... but I am excited to see how my American bike measures up...

oh and my Nottingham 531 raleigh is a slop job as well, not what you would expect from a 531 bike with cinelli lugs, and campy dropouts, but it rides fantasitic!! one of the other nicest riding bikes I have had was a taiwanese schwinn.

I concur. My 1980 Peugeot PKN-10E is a mess compared to the circa 1960 Capos or even the 1981 Bianchi, with ugly seams down the backs of the fork blades and brazing voids where the rear dropouts meet the chainstays. However, the Peugeot is indeed a nice ride.

Well peugeot paint is always a little sloppy, but they're good bikes.

Of my 4, the Gitane has the worst workmanship. The brazing is terrible and the thin paint only makes it look worse. The chrome is the cheapest looking, too. On the other hand, the ride is so nice that I don't dwell on the sloppy workmanship. Being the typical French bike you either love it or you don't.

My Raleigh Pro has much better workmanship than the Gitane, but not nearly as nice as the Paramounts.

My Gitane has the sloppiest workmanship of the bunch, but it's my favorite ride. The chrome and paint on my Peugeot are very nice and they've held up well for 33 years, but they could have spent a little more time smoothing the head lugs. The Trek 930 has the best paint and nicest workmanship and the Bridgestone is a close second.

Dirtdrop has a good point, sound construction and design is not always with aesthetic happiness. Sometimes you get one and not the other, sometimes both. The pretty ones are more fun to hang on the wall.

There is a woman who works for me who just LOVES the bike with the fully chromed fork, lugwork? Its the chrome for her. What are lugs?

Then there is the occasional point where it all coalesces: great workmanship AND a great ride: I nominate my Yoshi Konno (era, if not built by) 3 Rensho. It's workmanship is ultra clean, precise and yet NOT soul-less...it's just a different soul from the Italian, British, French, and American flavors.

I take issue with describing Japanese as being "souless". For me, soul equates to pride and dedication. The Japanese were totally dedicated to bringing you the best possible bicycle at a given price point. They were the people that raised the bar on the entry and mid range models. No longer did we have to suffer the poor craftsmanship of the French and Italians. They were so good at it, that it appeared effortless. To many, that equates to souless, but it requires the utmost dedication and effort.

The above examples illustrate that the common person equates soul to workmanship. In most cases, more rightly it is amount of work. The more soulfully frames are simply sweated over for longer periods of time to produce a more aesthetically pleasing or unique product. The Japanese can do this too, as witnessed by 3Rensho and a handful of small marques. However, this market was too small for the majority of Japanese firms, who were interestred in the profits of the mass market. For the typical cyclist, the most soulful bicycles are the most expensive and that equates to lots of labor. Ask a Italian master to produce a bicycle at the same price point as a Miyata 910 and it ends up looking no better than a 910, and often worse. Did he put less soul into it? No, just less labor.

I have to agree with T-Mar's assessment. In critically evaluating the quality of craftsmanship of a lugged frame, a chrome plated bike will show any sloppiness in lug fitting and brazing to a much greater degree than a similar painted frame since the paint can cover a multitude of sins.

Schwinn imported the popularly priced Japanese made Voyageur 11.8 for a couple of years around 1980, and it was available with a chrome plated frame as an option. These bikes were beautifully made, and the care taken to properly fit and braze the lugs is readily apparent.

"Soulless" is a subjective term since there's no evidence that a soul exists. Objectively, the quality of workmanship can be evaluated by critical observation.

I find it odd that so many say their Gitanes are so sloppy. The brazing is actually pretty good on mine (paint is thin, chrome is crappy, and while I'm complaining - those rigida rims are nearly as bad as anything Huffy has ever had on their bikes) The poorest brazing I've seen would have to have been on my Fuji Sport 10 - gaps between the lugs and tubing, absolutely terrible looking, the Senator (also japanese but a generation older) was also pretty bad, the Miata a generation younger than the Fuji was excellently crafted though.
The Sports Pacer V Columbia I have, was brazed together beautifully - no lugs of course, but every joint is perfectly clean and crisp and the frame is in perfect alignment (aside from the top tube which seems to slope on every Columbia I've ever seen) - unlike my 1964 Western Flyer (also made by Columbia) which is not so straight, and also features a big gob of brazing material on the headtube that nobody bothered to clean off (not to mention the thinest paint job I've yet seen on a bike).

This is an amusing thread...seeing as, in my line of work, I get to see them ALL naked!! . .

I would have to agree...some brazing is "How the heck did they DO that?" all the way to "I could do better in 7th grade metalshop class!"
And even the best builders get the occasional bubble in the brass...
That's where I come in, my name's Friday...

BTW MajorA, If you want to maintaiun that look, powdercoat it clear over the bare metal. Make sure it has the appearance you want. (ie; polished, scuffed, blasted) The clear may add a very slight goldish tinge to the finish. And yes, sadly, it may eventually start to rust. And you will see it under the powdercoat. But if done right, that shouldn't happen for a few years anyway.

As always, PM me if you have any questions.

Excellent point. The Japanese are known for thier precision and that shouldn't be confused with lack of craftsmanship.

Thanks, folks ... where else can a guy toss out a couple of observations about frames and end up with a long string about the soul? ;-)

In all seriousness, I meant no insult to Japanese steel frames from the glory years, or to their makers; my personal preference, be it in furniture or architecture or music or guitars, has always run to the hand-crafted. Being able to see the hand of a thing's maker in the final creation has always pleased me, and with the Japanese frames that's hard for me to do, because they're such clean and consistent A- work. There is art - and soul - in perfecting an industrial process. But for me, I like looking at a frame and being able to picture some retired racer named Reg or Wes hunched over it in a Stygian workshop somewhere in Yorkshire, file in hand.

As far as the clearcoat goes, I wish it could be so, but one of the things which I had to do was cut off and file down the top tube braze-on cable guides, which had rusted badly. They left some residual pitting and staining, and while the damage isn't structural, it ain't pretty, neither ...

I've got six road bikes now, and if you add in the Superbe, you can make it seven. Out of the lot, the Superbe has mildly sloppy workmanship. My SuperCourse has passable workmanship, the Miyata 210 is very good, the Holland is a bit better, the Fuji Finest a bit better still, Raleigh Professional is excellent, and the Bob Jackson is exceptional. I feel somewhat fortunate in that five of the seven, I really have to pick some nits to find any deficiency with. Of course, these are the ones that I've kept. I've passed 7-8 others on to other folks, and the majority of them were not quite so nicely finished.

I am talking about fundamentally sloppy metal work, such as brazing voids and incompletely sanded seams, not merely about paint. My tre tubi Bianchi reportedly has seamed forks and stays, but one can't tell by looking, even very closely. Yes, the higher-end Peugeots are indeed good bikes, and if mine were 2 cm shorter, it might even have become my favorite all-rounder.