My education continues. Down at Mr Sugiyama's bike shop and he crouches down next to the back wheel of my Trek. He gets up and goes into his shop coming back moments later with a spoke in his hand. He holds it up to one of the spokes on my bike and it's a bit shorter. 'Hmm..', he says. He then peers at the hub end of the spoke in his hand and then at the hub ends of the spokes on my wheel. He doesn't say anything and I know better than to ask - he will just ignore me till he has something to say.

He hands me the spoke in his hand and points to something embossed on the end of the spoke. I can't make it out so I ask if he has a magnifying glass. He goes and gets one. I still can't make out what's written there. He tells me he's had those spokes for 30 years and he can't remember.

I then look at the ends of my spokes poking through the holes in the hub and see there's something written there, too. 'What? They even put logos on the ends of spokes?' I ask. I can't make it out so he looks. 'DT', he says. 'DT? What does that stand for?' I ask. He doesn't know either but goes into his shop and returns with a box full of spokes with 'DT Swiss Spokes' written on the side and top.

He then starts running one of the spokes between 2 fingers so I get one and do the same. 'It's thicker at the ends, thinner in the middle!' says I. 'Yes, they're racing spokes... they're lighter in the middle where less strength is needed and thicker and stronger at the ends.' He then points to my spokes so I look closely at them and see they're the same. 'They're double butted too.' he says. Then it clicks what double butted frame tubes are.

My spokes are stainless steel whereas Mr S' box of DT spokes are chrome moly. He tells me that with those spokes he's never had one break, even when the L-shape at the hub end has started to straighten. SS spokes, he explained, tend to just snap.

Mr S has disappeared into his shop, this time to return with some stickers with 'DT Swiss Spokes' written on them and sticks one on the front rim and another on the back, right between the Matrix sticker and the ISO Cll sticker... it's as if a space was left for them.

Mr Sugiyama is pimping my ride.


Bigger photos on Flickr, at:
https://flickr.com/photos/22983673@N0...7603905040368/
and the following 2 pics.

I think Mr Sugiyama is enjoying your Trek!

Stainless steel is a weaker steel alloy than CrMo steel. But CrMo lacks corrosion resistance of SS.
I've not come across DT CrMo spokes. I wonder if these are mainly use for velodrome racing.
DT is a very popular brand that I've used for almost 30 years for all the wheels I've built. Never had a spoke failure so far. But they did change their spoke head configuration recently. So, YMMV.

Double butted spokes are not just for racing. Though, some people might get them for the smaller weight, they will build a stronger wheel.
Double butted frame tubes are made to save weight, double butted spokes are made to build stronger wheels.

Oh, yes. There are quite a few distinctive spoke head logos, which can drive one absolutely crazy when striving for that accurate-down-to-the-spokes restoration.

https://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.as...10707.1380.eml

Gawd, I love this list. A revelation to me and you come back at me, not just as if I'd mentioned water was wet, but with a load more fascinating stuff.

I will check if I got it right about the DT spokes were chrome moly... he might have meant the single spoke he brought out first. Thing is, I get all amazed, Mr S becomes more enlivened and starts using Japanese you don't normally hear in every day conversation.

Jeez, I should take pictures. I have more then half of the
ones listed in the CR email.

DT = Drahtwerke Trefileries

If you want to make Sugiyama's eyes light up, ask him to tie and solder the spokes. Many cyclists, especially the competitive ones, used to wrap copper wire around the spokes at the points where they crossed, then soldered the wire. Many believe that this makes a stronger, more rigid and reponsive wheel. Many of the boom era Peugeot PX-10 came this way and some track cyclists still follow the practice.

+1, I have a Mavic rear road wheel I picked up on ebay that is a disappointment because I keep breaking spokes on that rim, and only that rim, regardless of what bike I put it on. (No broken spokes on any other rear rim I own.) All the broken spokes (5) are on the drive side. My LBS told me to replace all of the drive side spokes with DT Swiss, double butted spokes. I'm in the process of completing that change. According to the mechanic, it should solve my broken spoke problem.

yeah, 30 years ago stainless spokes were kind of exotic. Most spokes were galvanized or chromed (the only chromed ones I have seen were Japanese). I don't know if the galvanized spokes were chro-mo.

Galvanized spokes actually lasted pretty well, but they did not necessarily stay pretty. When I started breaking spokes on one wheel not too long ago, I took a spoke to my LBS for them to match so I could relace the wheel. The galvanized spoke was so oxidized that they asked me if I wanted black spokes like that (galvanized) one.

My prewar Columbia had double butted spokes.

Dratwerk-Trafilarie DT it means "wire works" in German and French

DT spokes are not cro-moly, they are stainless. I've always heard that butted spokes make "stronger" wheels, but the only spokes that I've ever broke repeatedly were butted. 'could be because I'm so frikken fat though. I've always used straight gauge 14 spokes, and I rarely break one. Once the flanges on my rear hub gave out, but the spokes never broke.

My Schwinn SS has DB spokes. But you wanna know what freaked me out the other day at the flea market??? So did a set of wheels on an old stingray. Pretty sure it was original equipment too. I was like HUH? Schwinn quality indeed, hehe.,,,,BD

Yes, this is the sign of a special wheel. Lacing a wheel is tedious and laborious to start with, but winding and soldering 32 pairs of spokes for two wheels makes it worse.

Even though Jobst Brandt proved this doesn't make a difference in terms of wheel stiffness, if a spoke happens to break it won't go flying off and wreak havoc with your paintjob or the rest of the wheel, but stay somewhat in place due to being tied and soldered.

You are right, bikerosity57, the DT spokes he showed me were SS and DT spokes always have been. I just went and checked. The chrome moly spokes were made by Robergel and the little logo at the end that I couldn't make out was obviously the crescent in the list of spoke makers that gridplan linked in his post.

Mr S has obviously been thinking about it too as when he showed me one of the spokes the other day he said he couldn't remember who'd made it. Today he came straight out with Robergel. He added, with a laugh, that no matter how hard you try to keep them clean they always go black.

not only do double-butted spokes make for a stronger wheel (IMO) they also have a little more give to make for a better ride (IMO, of course, although it seems pretty obvious if you get the opportunity to compare the ride of identical wheels built with the different spokes). Both double butted spokes and double butted tubes have a nicer ride in common.

Today's version of the old 'tied and soldered' by Topolino (carbon fiber/Kevlar coated) spoke. Spoke starts at spokehole in rim, travels into . . . and through . . . c/f hubshell and to opposite spoke hole in rim. In fact, 1 continuous spoke instead of 2 separate spokes. The 'tied and soldered' effect is actually as small black plastic-type clip holding the 2 spokes as they cross. American ingenuity!