Cueballkrill

*Update*

I popped into my local vintage/classic bike shop yesterday and they wanted £15/$30 to remove the Cone and Cup from the frame (I didn't ask about the crown) I would also have to wait a week for it to be done.

Not being the patient fellow, and not liking the idea of paying that kind of money for a tool I couldn't keep I decided to make my own, following the nice simple guide on Dave Moulton's Bike Blog:


It worked like a charm, I also got the crown off myself using a flat hammer and that came off with little fuss (the blue paint wasn't very impressed)


Now it's not very easy to see, but the underside of the crown had some information stamped, I'm hoping this info might give you an idea as to the size/type of headset that is being used.

Shimano VIA Japan LI 25.4 (or) 26.4

The numbers are a little bit difficult to work out.

Any Idea's?

Cheers,

Jon


(The headset seems to be in very good condition, no damage that I can see, maybe I can just clean it up replace the ball bearings and a plastic seal and continue to use it?)

cyclotoine

I'd say reuse the headset if all is in good condition. That does say 26.4mm it is the inner diameter of that piece (the crown race) and it is the "Standard" size as in most 1" headsets available come in that dimension. Some old bikes were 27.0 and it is harder to find quality headsets in that size.

Cueballkrill

Cool that is what I'll do then.

Next week I should get my 'proper tool' for the bottom bracket (6 stud thingy) get that off and then down the powder shop it goes.

I'm a little bit worried about the bottom bracket, when I turn the spindle, it's not a smooth action, so i'm hoping it's just the ball bearings that need a swap over and not damage to the spindle itself. Fingers crossed!

Thanks again Cyclotoine.

Cueballkrill

Woops.

In the hope of removing my bottom bracket I ordered a Park BBT4 Bottom Bracket Tool... (it looked right from the image) but it's the wrong tool, as it's missing the little pins needed to get the blighter out!

I think I need to go for this - Park Tools SPA5C Adjustable Pin Spanner, Is that right?

I feel like a spanner!

Oh my my pretty campag cogs have gone missing in the post, not a good weekend for me so far!

edit - or this...

https://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetai...0Pin%20Spanner

unworthy1

I assume you're just thinking of removing the adjustable cup, and that's the "easy" side. You don't really need the pin spanner to do this, though it will make the job easier and will come in handy if you do this job multiple times. But if you just want to get the thing open so you can check and re-pack, what you really want is a lockring wrench (I like the Hozan) and once that's loose the cup usually unscrews with crude tools like needle-nose pliers or a nail-set (or just a nail) and light hammer tapping. If you find the entire BB is shot (a good bet if it sounds crunchy) then you need the special tools for the fixed cup. Check Sheldon Brown's hints on this job, it will save your knuckles and reduce swearing.

Cueballkrill

Thanks! -_____- Looks like i'll be having fun!

Cueballkrill

I just had a look on sheldonbrown's site (thank you very much)

I'm a little bit worried by what I've read, he states that the fixed cup should only be removed if it is going to be replaced, but I only want to take it out so that the frame can be powder coated.

Would it really be a bad idea to 'put it back in' after the powder-coating?

What do you guys think?

unworthy1

yes, you should take out the fixed cup if you're doing a complete respray or powder coating. But a complete job should also include chasing the threads (after painting) and facing the BB shell (best done BEFORE you paint or PC, IMHO) Then you either put it back or put in the replacement if your old one is scored, worn, rusted or pitted. Sheldon is cautioning against taking this job lightly cause it can often be a real bear and doesn't NEED to be done to rebuild or regrease a usable BB.

Cueballkrill

wow.

It looks like I've taken this far too lightly, I guess I can go go so far with the tools that are available to me, I think I should take it down the bike shop, for the thread chasing/facing.

I'm going to go ahead with the removal of the bottom bracket (including the fixed bracket) as I can do this myself, the rest I'll give over to the professionals.

Thank you unworthy1.



P.S. I actually thought I could either scrape the paint out myself with a blade or just put the bottom bracket back in and get the thread on that to remove the paint from the frame! Hahahahaha.

unworthy1

in the spirit of DIY (and being a cheapskate, myself) I have found a couple work-arounds to proper thread chasing done with proper tools: I have a little wire wheel (on a shaft) that is a nice tight fit in most BB shells, I run it into the shell with a reversible drill, consistent with the thread direction, and then reverse the drill's rotation to back it out. A few times and the threads gleam like new. Another trick is to take an old set of cups (with correct threading) and cut slots in the threads, perpendicular to the threads. I use an emery wheel in a Dremel, make about 6 cuts clean and deep. This acts as a cheap set of clean-up taps: run them in and out of the shell (scrape the crud out of the cuts with a nail and wire brush) until threading comes clean.
I don't have a cheap solution for a facing tool, but if you are installing a "modern" sealed BB unit, the outer faces don't need to be squared-up like they do with an old-fashioned "open" BB, IMO.

Cueballkrill

Good idea unworthy!

I've sent a message to the shop that wanted $30 bucks to remove the headset cup to see how much they would charge to chase the threads and do the outer faces and see what they say.

The proper tool is just so expensive it is unreal.

I'm going to wait on the shop first; I really don't want to ruin the frame, so I am resisting (at the moment) the idea of going for the wheel on a drill trick!

How about a liquid sand approach? You can buy liquid sander in bottle in the DIY shops couldn't I just smear the bottom bracket cone with it a run a cloth around the inside... maybe the 'grit' wouldn't be strong enough to remove the powder-coat.

Well sometime this week is going to be operation "Total BB removal" followed by "Powder-coat fun time"

Bright red frame, Jet black forks.

Let’s see how it turns out!

Cueballkrill

*Update*

It's a French frame for sure , It is a right-hand thread... So when I get around to putting the Bottom Bracket back it I better make it super tight! (That you Mr. Vice)

Something that was interesting, the fixed cup upon closer inspection wasn't very even, the bottom of the cup wasn't flush to the shell face where the top was, also the shell faces were a little bit chipped and far from being nice and smooth, anyway, that is something to be resolved after the powder coat.

Antipodes

No, it is NOT a French frame. The fixed cup clearly shows the "1.37 X 24 tpi" stamp, which means it's standard thread and most likely anything but old French, Swiss or Italian in origin.
If it was French, the fixed cup would be marked "35 X 1" and left-threaded...or perhaps you already knew that judging by the smiley face in your last post...???

Cueballkrill

Well something is clearly wrong then.

Sheldon Brown's website said that you can have a standard thread with a right or left thread, because this is a right thread it is a French frame (just with a standard thread)

Hey, I have no knowledge on bikes, but from what I have read, and because of the thread on the bike, it is French.

Cueballkrill

"Bicycles built to French or Italian standards have a normal right-hand threading for the fixed cup."

https://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

Antipodes

Of course stupid me didn't look at the photos very well!..or read the entire thread, or even the title!...please shoot me now....!!!!

The last photo shows the spindle and ADJUSTABLE cup, which is always standard right threading, regardless of the origin.
My apologies.
But yes, it could be French, just from the later, post-1980ish period. It isn't Italian though, I can tell you that much.

Cueballkrill

Cool cool, I knew it was a mid 80's bike, I just didn't expect it to twist to the right, I was hoping that it would go left

So what does that mean for my headset? I guess standard iso with right thread?

Antipodes

yes, headsets are always normal right-threading, regardless of origin.

unworthy1

but wait, you're half-right (or half-left...whatever) cause that Campy adjustable cup IS clearly marked with the ENGLISH thread spec: 1.37"x24tpi, so this BB seems to be a mongrel. Somebody may have jammed the ENGLISH adjustable cup into the FRENCH BB, given that you say your FIXED cup is RH threads. It can be done (this swap), but one done I wouldn't swap BACK to a FR cup, chances are the threads have been half-buggered and the cup will fit loosely. It's also even further mongrel-ized with an Ofmega spindle, I wonder if any of the parts match.
As far as installation, I swear by an application of LocTite (BLUE, not red) to the CLEAN threads when installing a RH thread fixed cup (FR or ITA) and then you don't have to resort to big guns when tightening it, the LocTite holds it fast.

Antipodes

I was actually thinking this exact thing, but I thought the notion was so ridiculous I didn't bother posting it. We need to know whether the fixed cup shown in the photo did actually come out of the drive side of the bb shell to be certain. Given that the OP stated that the cup wasn't sitting very flush with the shell would support this.

Cueballkrill

wow.

So i'm fixing up a mong bike Great stuff!

When I was looking at the thread yesterday it didn't look very clean (inside the frame) so this is a 'downstairs mix up'.



Well the fixed cup is on the drive side (right leg?) on the frame and the adjustable cup is on the left.


So gents, what do I do? Can I fix this should I look at replacing the entire bottom bracket (if this is a bad mix up?) how about the threads?

I'm loving this! You think you reached one mountain top to see a bigger one right behind it!

Cueballkrill

I should also mention that the fixed cup has no markings what so ever.

I've had a quick look on ebay, and campagnolo fixed cups have markings on them, so the only campagnolo thing on the bottom bracket is the adjustable part


*I'm laughing but really I'm crying inside*




(replacement? - https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Campagnolo-105...em220216742904)

cyclotoine

I don't think so. I'm a little confused, but from what you are telling us you unscrewed the fixed cup by turning it counter clockwise? I.e. like a normal everyday lefty loosey, same was as the adjustable cup? Indicating a most likely french threading?

Cueballkrill

I'm a little confused now.

Let me check the frame again when it comes back from the shop.

I can't even remember which way around the frame was when I was working on the bb.

unworthy1

My best guess (reading and interpreting, so I could be wrong) is that this frame came with a French BB shell, the fixed cup (right-hand side) is a normal RH thread and is metric (35x1mm). But somebody has forced in a Campy English (1.37"x24) cup on the adjustable side. This is not such a huge fiasco that you can't just go ahead and continue to use the same (or a same-but-replacement) mis-matched cup set: the threading is now "modified" due to the forcing of the BSC into the metric. But unless it was done really badly (cross-threaded or stripped) you should be able to use it as-is after cleaning up the threads with either the correct clean-up taps (at a *good* LBS) or a wire brush (see my tips, above) BUT you will now and forever have a dual-citizenship BB: a FR fixed cup and a BSC adjustable cup, then the next puzzle piece is: what spindle fits *correctly* in this unique BB? If the threading was really butchered (consult an expert to assess that) you may have to resort to: 1. ream out and re-tap for Italian threading; or 2. go to a "threadless BB unit" like a Mavic, Stronglight or YST...this may exceed the value of the frame, but you're into it pretty deep by now. If it were me, I'd make it work and make it ride-able. Good Luck!