Rocksteady

Hi everyone,

I'd like to replace an early 5 speed Atom freewheel threaded on a Normandy hub that came stock (I think) on my '70 Raleigh Competition.

Could anyone advise me how to determine how the hub is threaded (British, French ISO? ) and/or give recomendations on some good replacements for the freewheel. My LBS suggested a Suntour Pro Compe 5 speed or Ultra 6speed.

Theres one NOS on ebay - for 70$
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tab%3DWatching
but Harris sells Suntour 5speed free wheels for 40$
https://sheldonbrown.com/harris/freewheels.html#5

Id like to keep the bike period if I can, but w/o knowing the threading I'm stuck.


Thanks in advance,
RS

nlerner

Even though that's a French hub and a French freewheel, I'd still guess it's English threading. Just seems like the way Raleigh would have spec'd it.

Are you replacing that Atom freewheel because it's shot or because you want different gearing? In either case, I have a box full of 5-speed freewheels in the basement--PM me what you're looking for.

Neal

John E

As Neal noted, it is probably ISO-threaded, so you can use almost anything. The Ultra 6-speed would be my first choice by far, and that's what I run on the Peugeot and Capo #2, but that's because I cannot enough gear ratios with 10 combinations.

Rocksteady

Thanks for the advice- The freewheel is making kind of a brief ratcheting sound each revolution of the wheel (while its on the bike- it doesnt make the sound while its off, and spins beautifully while off the hub). I have flushed the freewheel with Simple green and mineral spirits and submerged the whole thing in 30 weight motor oil but the sound persists. It sounds like a few of the pawls could be stuck in the wrong position

If theres something else I could do to fix the existing free wheel I'd rather keep the original vs getting a new one, but its almost 40 years old so it may be due for a change.

RS

Rocksteady

nlerner- PM sent

miamijim

There's a very easy way to check.....

https://cyclespeugeot.com/images/DSC00019.JPG

For more on threading click here:

https://cyclespeugeot.com/Threading.html

Rocksteady

Thanks for the link Jim

I just checked the freewheel an there are no markngs on it other than "Atom" and "Made in France" stamped on the top. The hub has no markings other than "Normandy" but lacks dust caps and has an oil hole cover that wraps around the thin part.

unworthy1

IMH experience, nearly every FR threaded freewheel and hub I ever owned did NOT provide the courtesy of stamping that info anywhere...too bad for me. The only way I've been able to determine threading in those cases is to use the "go/no-go" system and a FW and hub of positively known threading.

Road Fan

How many threads per inch is the hub? If you can count the number of threads on the hub, and accurately measure the length of the threaded area, such as with a caliper, you can compare the pitch of the actual threading with the spec threading for an English hub. If the match isn't close to perfect you have a different thread, which by elimination must be French. Someone (unfortunately not me!) should be able to tell you what the thread pitch is for a French hub.

I recall seeing a PDF of Cyclopedia on-line. Or maybe someone with an old Sutherland manual can look it up.

Road Fan

due ruote 

The Normandy hubs that came stock on my 1973 Gran Sport are ISO for what that's worth. If you have the freewheel off and if you have a bottom bracket lockring laying around, try threading that on. It should fit.

John E

True, if and only if one is using an ISO lockring. With a French/Swiss lockring, this test risks damaging the hub's aluminum threads.

Rocksteady

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I'll calculate the thread pitch if I can get my hands on a set of calipers. Meanwhile, here are some pics of the hub and freewheel. Hopefully they can help ID the threading.

unworthy1

can't tell by looking, at least us mere mortals can't. I'm inclined to trust that Raleigh would have spec'd BSC threads, but do you *know* that it's the original wheel? In this case, I'd try a known British lockring or FW and grease it up good before trial. Don't go past the point of hand torque-ing; if it doesn't jam up within a few turns, it's probably a "go". Thing is that the difference between FR and BSC (34.7 x 1mm and 1.37" x 24tpi) is so close you really can't tell by measuring with common tools, and the real crucial difference is in the thread *angle* which you would only see in a magnified cross-section. But you can tell right away if you test it by simple go/no-go trial.

stronglight

That is an interesting looking hub. Looks quite old. I have not seen any Normandy hubs with an oil hole clip. And, the placement of the "Normandy" stamped around the barrel is also unusual. Is there truly a hole concealed beneath the clip? Appears to be a Normandy "Competition" (their highest quality) hub - I say this because of the large sized oval cut-outs in the flange and the recess on the outer side of the flange. Perhaps they wanted to mimic Campagnolo Record hubs by adding the oil hole clip?

If you have another "standard" (BSC/ISO) hub. You might try to (GENTLY!) thread on the freewheel. If it makes a couple easy turns but then stops abruptly it would be a French thread freewheel. The Two-Prong design looks like a very early Atom freewheel. By the late 60s or early 70s all of the ones I had seen used a splined extractor tool - they were among the first to use that design and much later Regina, Shimano, etc., finally caught up.

You will notice on your hub there is a space past the threaded portion of the hub, with a single "Groove" added before you reach the flange. My FRENCH threaded Normandy hubs are solid in that area (with no recessed band). I think this may be the most significant indication of BSC threading. (Campagnolo did something similar on their hubs.) - I never thought to look at this before! Here is a quick photo of one of my French thread hubs:

miamijim

Bob, you beat me too it!!

My 1982 French Maillard hub is smooth in that area as well.

As far as measuring the pitch.....I dont think you'll have much luck:

French threads 34.7 X 1
B.S.A threads 34.8 X 1.058

B.S.A. freewheels are .1mm larger in
diameter with a different pitch. Pitch
differences are the limiting factor

Road Fan

Per the numbers, the diameters are so close that measument errors or damage can obscure the difference, 34.8 (ISO) versus 34.7 for the French. If the French thread pitch is 1 per mm, then in an inch you can count out 25.4, or 25 threads in just less than an inch. This is one less than English. I think that by measuring very carefully with a caliper on both your Normandy and a known English or ISO hub, you can see if there is a consistent difference between the two hubs.

Even better, use the known English hub or an English adjustable BB cup as a thread guage by laying its thread over the thread of the Normandy and see if they nest perfectly. If they don't, the Normandy is French. Your LBS might even have a suitable thread guage that could be used.

I really would not risk thread damage by a go/no-go test.

Road Fan

unworthy1

I've never damaged any hub threads using just hand pressure in a go/no-go test, but I'm not a ham-fist, either. I like the BB cup comparison test idea, from now on I'll do it that way. Thanks for the idea.

Rocksteady

Thanks for the information everyone!

Tmar also identified the hub recess indicating BSC threading in a posting that managed to elude my BF searches (via Google) until last night. He goes further to mention that English thread Atom freewheels have a rectangular punch mark on their bottoms. One can be seen at the eight o'clock position in the last pic above.

To quote Tmar-
"On English threaded Atom and Normandy hubs, there will be a single groove between the freewheel threads and flange. If there is no groove it is French threading (unless Pierre had a little too much wine during lunch and forgot to cut the groove).

If there is a rectangular punch mark on the back of those Atom freewheels, they are English thread. If there is no mark, they are French threaded.

Campagnolo hubs may be marked with the thread size, but some older ones do not. Older ones with a single groove cut between the freewheel threads and flange are English thread."

Stronglight- There are oil holes in the barrels of the hubs. I wonder if these hubs are meant to be lubricated with oil instead of grease, as the bearings seem to be hard to reach due to the lack of dustcaps ?

Thanks again,

RS

coelcanth

open up your freewheel and see what's going on inside..
it looks like it's in good shape

unworthy1

just to throw in some more confusion: I tested the Normandy Comp Luxe hub and Atom FW that I had *assumed* to be French threads using both the BB-cup-compare method (inconclusive) and threading on a known BSC BB lockring. There is no groove cut into the Normandy's shell (threads are clean and undamaged), and no punch mark on the Atom (splined, but with the script on the front) FW....but the lockring threaded on like butter. It felt the same as it did threading onto a Specialized hub...this French combo is English. Makes me happy cause now I can put a reasonable sized FW on the hub and actually use the wheel.

Road Fan

Oil is not a substitute for grease. Grease is basically soap or something else pasty that holds oil. Grease brings oil to your bearings and keeps it there, mostly. Oil eventually runs out if the grease,and the pasty stuff then hardens up. When this happens, bearings get rough as teh balls try to run over the chunks. If grit gets in, it jsut gets trapped, and ground into the beautiful smooth bearing races, causing wear.

Oil injected thru the hole can carry dirt to the bearing. It will also run out in an hour or so. Track racers used to (might still?) race short races on oiled hubs, but this is in a clean environment, with clean bikes and with cleaned hub bearings, a race-only bike. Not suitable for street use! Just leave you little oil hole covers in place and grease teh hubs in the usual way.

Road Fan

Grand Bois

Makes sense until you realize that only the road hubs had the "little oil covers".

unworthy1

and who would want that oil dripping all over the nice (banked) wood?

stronglight

YES! Exactly. I even recall during the late 1960s, many track bikes (not mine) were even left with no dust covers on the hubs. This too was a antiquated convention left over from yet earlier days when riders would simply squirt oil into the exposed bearing races before each race. It would quickly run out, of course, but the idea was that pure thin oil would offer far less Resistance than thicker grease.

In fact, this may have once been true considering the pretty crude wax based greases which were once all that was available. [You may even pick up some old unused components these days and find the bearings now smell like Crayola wax crayons] Look carefully at the condition of any old hubs or bottom brackets left unattended for decades and what often remains of the original grease may be dried blotches of nearly solid brown residue. This often makes even new-old-stock hubs feel gritty, worn or severely pitted, when in fact after thorough cleaning they may once again look clean and run perfect.

This also brings to mind a thought on the original post regarding the condition of the freewheel. I would be sure to soak that thoroughly overnight in a coffee can of mineral spirits to help loosen any dried hardened grease which may be interfering with the free movement of the pawls. You may even want to spin it and re-submerge it a few times.

Even before Mountain bikes which could become crusted with mud, freewheels and chains were often left intentionally coated with thick layers of grease. A misguided idea that more grease would further help resist rusting. Unfortunately, it also attracts and holds huge amounts of dirt and grit which thickens into a dense abrasive paste on the exposed parts. Grease was often used inside freewheels simply to make them sound quiet rather than loudly ticking. That grease can eventually become gummy enough to freeze up pawls. - Just my personal experience from overhauling far too many nasty old freewheels.

Rocksteady

Thanks everyone for the input.

I'll try to degrease/oil the freewheel a few more times before I replace it. I have been using 30 weight motor oil to lubricate it Would anyone recommend I use a heavier weight oil?

RS