Incorrect.

It just is. A brand carries equity just like capital costs, there is absolutely no difference. Would you be so upset if someone used the torches from the old Herse factory to make new bikes? Because the torches are the same as the brand, it is business, it is not personal.

There are not a lot of choices out there for a semi-custom randoneer out there. If you wanted to start a new business to make randoneers, why wouldn't you want a leg up? It would be simply stupid not to.

You could argue the "new" brand doesn't live up to the "old" brand. It doesn't represent the same values or quality. Again, a stupid arguement. Continuous brands, ones that have been around for a long time, change their meaning to the customer all of the time, again, it is just business.

Or you could argue since there is no Herse is invovled, it is not a Herse. Hate to break this to you but Dr. Porsche has been dead a long time and it makes no difference what the brand stands for. Again, a stupid arguement.

Is a Cinelli still a Cinelli? I have heard it isn't anymore. When did it no longer be a Cinelli then? Giotto started the company in 1946, did it no longer be Cinelli when Cino took over in 1948? Or was it whe Cino retired and Antonio bought it even though the head frame builder stayed on for a while. Or was it when he retired? Or was it when they used modern materials like aluminum and carbon? To say it isn't a Cinelli based on any of those things is just silly.

It seems the whole arguement about a brand not being a brand here and especially in the road forum (BD bikes) is purely based on sentiment. And that is just BS.

Hey, relax, you're trying to burst my bubble. I'm a sentimental guy Fortunately ethics is in the eye of the beholder so it only matters if I think it is. Usually when I hear somebody say, "It's just business" it's right before a whole bunch of people get laid off at Christmas time or something.

But now you're opening a whole 'nother can of worms that probably deserves its own thread - "When is a company still the same company?"

Essentially you are saying that anytime I buy anything, I can't narrow my selection by looking at well known brands that I know in the past have produced good products that meet my needs but instead I must go through every available product out there trying to compare each one. That might be workable with semi-custom randoneurs since there aren't that many but for other things it could be quite cumbersome. It might be a good practice but I doubt seriously it's what most people do. I bet most people say, "I bought a Toyota and it was a good car so I'm going to look at Toyotas for my next car". Maybe those people are stupid, lazy, gullible, or whatever but that's what most people do and it's the very reason why companies work so hard to establish and maintain brands in the first place.

Yes, there is a whole lot of money invovled with brand management. But there is also a whole lot of effort and somewhat of a science to having a brand mean a specific thing. Toyota is about quality, Porsche is about performance and WalMart (please, no Walmart pissing matches, this is just an example ) is about low cost. Your subsequent use and perception of it's fit to the brand identity is essential for you to "trust" the brand message and not have to do the research you mention. The new Herse has some equity in the brand identity of the old Herse, and they are paying money for it. As they can buy the old torches, they can buy a brand. The question is, will they live up to the perceived brand identity of Herse? Only time will tell.

Some brands try to move catagories (eg, Toyota wanting to known as a performance vehicle) and it is often unsuccessful and at the very least it is very expensive. Obviously there is some backlash of using the Herse name, there is a long history with some very loyal "fans". I don't think the new owners should consider changing the brand like BD did with Windsor, etc. But if they make a product that lives up to the perceived brand of Herse, what is the harm?

Why not a Nobilette? Styling, and lets say Mark would not do a bike in a Herse style without authorization. Reasonable convictions.

Mike Kone is doing a Boulder Cycles, different animal.

Who is being being taken advantage of? The public? They don't have to buy it. Lack of conviction? I do not understand that, hard work has to go into these things, the financier deserves a profit if it goes well.

to be true, does one have to be as talented and bitter like Bruce Gordon is perceived? He has complained frequently about the lack of monetary success, but he is very talented.

Mark and Bruce might be examples of where those who are talented at doing are best not to be doing the representation, even Picasso had an agent. Then there are guys like Hockney who might not be anywhere without one.

The Soulville is a cool-looking bike and quite suitable to the riding most city dwellers do. Not crazy about the name, though. A very similar bike is the Bianchi Milano.

There are already lots of classic geometry, lugged steel bikes out there, as retro as you want to be. And if you want something different, like the Moorson, then a custom builder will be glad to build it for you.

That's what BikesDirect is banking on with their arsenal of old brand names they've bought up.

I seriously doubt anyone considering a Rene Herse is going to be fooled. Herse gets Nobilette to make frames for them. How is that any different than Masi hiring people like Dave Moulton to make frames?

You are right, I don't think anyone will actually be fooled with the Herse. But...it was my understanding that it is not a case of Herse hiring Nobilette to build their bikes but of them simply selling the Herse brand which has not been used in years to an unconnected person who is then having Nobilette build the bikes. The difference is that Masi still owned the comapny and presumably was dictating the design and implementing quality control of some sort regardless of who was weilding the torch. Did I misunderstand that part of it? I thought the only Herse involvement was to sell the name and cash the check. If I'm wrong about that then forget everything I said, it's all good

Nobody lives forever and we all hope to retire someday so if you run a family business you have to turn it over to somebody someday or close it. In many cases that somebody will be your children but it could be a partner or anyone. Hopefully you care enough about your life's work to at least try to insure that whoever you are turning it over to intends to continue the brand indentity, especially if they are using your name. But if instead you decide to shut it down and let the business and brand die with you, so be it. Let it stay buried and let Nobilette build Nobilettes. The at least we'll always have Nobilettes. Instead, we're going to end up having Nobilette Herses for a while until he get really well known and succssfull and decides he want's to build Nobilettes under his own name and then Herse will hire somebody new and then we'll have a new thread arguing about whether the Nobilette period Herses were better or the later ones

None. If they are successful then in 10-20 years most of us won't care anymore and the new customers won't know anything about this arguement and the brand will have been re-established. It's just something for us curmudgeonly old coots to grumble and groan about in the mean time. So let us have our fun while it lasts

I was thinking about that Bianchi reproduction that I posted and got to wondering-------does Bianchi make anything in Italy anymore? Not that I care where a bike is made really but it used to be that a full celeste-coloured bike denoted the fact that the bike was built and assembled in Italy. Clearly, that doesn't apply anymore and, looking again at those close-ups of the lugs, it is a pretty poor looking Bianchi. I don't think it is Taiwanese-made, more like China. Kinda sad.

Maybe but who knows? I doubt Bianchi is going to fes up. The top of the line steel frames were made in Italy until a few years ago but there aren't any more of those as far as I can tell. My 2002 was one of the last. The high-end aluminum frames were too so maybe the FG Lite still is. And perhaps the Matta Titanium. From what I've heard I believe the carbon fiber frames that make up the bulk of the top-end line up are made in Taiwan and shipped to Italy for finishing so they carry the "Made in Italy" and "Reparto Corse" labels but I'm not sure about that. Maybe somebody else has better info. Those "Made in ..." labels don't mean much anymore if they ever did. I'm not sure even the Chinese would lay claim to that poor excuse for a Bianchi in those pictures. Certainly doesn't appear to be made in Bianchi's Taiwan factory which produces a fine product.

I remember hearing a story one time that the "Made in Germany" label that German products carry was originally forced on them in the late 19th century by the British who wanted to make sure consumers knew these were German products and not British because "Made in Germany" then was sort of like "Made in China" today.

Here's yer Bugatti replicas;
https://www.pursangweb.com/