Lug Analysis
09-16-08 | 11:47 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,154
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From: Chattanooga
Bikes: '93 Bridgestone RB-1, '91 Specialized Allez Epic, '85 Raleigh Team Pro, '78 Andre Bertin, early '90s F. Moser Leader AX , '85 Centurion Equipe, '98 Litespeed Tuscany, '89 Klein Quantum, '80 Nishiki Superbe, '83 Peckham, '84 Fuji Opus III
Lug Analysis
On steel frames, lug work is frequently cited as support for overall quality and value. How about some schooling on how to analyze quality lug work.
Apart from marque reputation, lug intricacy, material content, history, etc., I'm interested in how one can determine with the eye what sets the finest apart from the ordinary.
Please provide pic examples, if possible.
Thanks.
Apart from marque reputation, lug intricacy, material content, history, etc., I'm interested in how one can determine with the eye what sets the finest apart from the ordinary.
Please provide pic examples, if possible.
Thanks.
09-16-08 | 11:58 AM
#2
Nice lugwork is the visible showing of effort, but not brazing skill. So, a great frame can be created with ugly lugs and not a file mark. Its reputation and what you can see, alignment, and if accessible, look into the bottom bracket, if they took the time to miter there, then the other joints are probably mitered too, but I have seen perfectly mitered tubes that never met, the lug was the bridge between the two tubes.
09-16-08 | 12:12 PM
#3
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 17,687
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From: n.w. superdrome
Bikes: 1 trek, serotta, rih, de Reus, Pogliaghi and finally a Zieleman! and got a DeRosa
This is an interesting take on lugs by one of America's premier builders:
quoted from CR list with (hopefully) permission of Mr. Baylis.
Marty
I believe I have an answer to that question, but I'm not certain I can
explain everything that it entails. To begin with, good finishing work on
lugs actually starts early in the framebuilding process as good
preperation of the lugs prior to assembly of the frame. Since you haven't
asked what is "excellent or exceptional" finishing work on lugs I'll spare
you my opinions on that. Also, I suppose who is defining "good" finishing
work will make a difference. I can't tell you how many hundreds of time in
my life I've heard people say something like "wow, the lugwork on that
bike is beautiful" while looking at a completly out of the box set of
Nervex pro lugs on something like a Peugeot, Raleigh, or Paramount. There
isn't a single stroke of good finishing or prep work on those lugs
whatsoever. I never ceases to astonish me as to what people can and can't
see when looking at a bike.
I would call "good finishing work" a bike that has at least a sharp and
square lug edge, without any factory or other imperfections in the profile
of the lug, and a clean braze job. Running over the lugs after brazing
with emory cloth will give the lug a better appearance that just leaving
them alone, like you will see on any IC lugged factory bike from the mid
70's to present. Most modern framebuilders and factories are right in
there between OK and good depending on wheather they have taken an extra 5
or 10 minutes to run emory cloth over the castings or not. Almost
everything you will ever see comming from high end factories or custom
builders worldwide qualifies as good by that deffinition.
If you actually want to know what above adverage to excellent and
exceptional lugwork and finishing is then let me know and I'll explain my
deffinition of that as well. Only a small fraction of a percent of frames
ever built, and especially these days, exhibit the characteristics of
exceptional design and finish. Talk is cheap and many lay claim to such;
but personally I believe the numbers are so small as to be staggering.
Most have either given up or never wanted to or knew how. Learning to
really recognize the qualities that define exceptional frame finishing
probably would require one to have a LARGE selection of frames in front of
you at once of various degrees of finish, and someone to actually knows a
lot about it to point out and guide you to a deeper understanding and
appreciation of the craft.
Hope that does a little bit to answer your question.
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
explain everything that it entails. To begin with, good finishing work on
lugs actually starts early in the framebuilding process as good
preperation of the lugs prior to assembly of the frame. Since you haven't
asked what is "excellent or exceptional" finishing work on lugs I'll spare
you my opinions on that. Also, I suppose who is defining "good" finishing
work will make a difference. I can't tell you how many hundreds of time in
my life I've heard people say something like "wow, the lugwork on that
bike is beautiful" while looking at a completly out of the box set of
Nervex pro lugs on something like a Peugeot, Raleigh, or Paramount. There
isn't a single stroke of good finishing or prep work on those lugs
whatsoever. I never ceases to astonish me as to what people can and can't
see when looking at a bike.
I would call "good finishing work" a bike that has at least a sharp and
square lug edge, without any factory or other imperfections in the profile
of the lug, and a clean braze job. Running over the lugs after brazing
with emory cloth will give the lug a better appearance that just leaving
them alone, like you will see on any IC lugged factory bike from the mid
70's to present. Most modern framebuilders and factories are right in
there between OK and good depending on wheather they have taken an extra 5
or 10 minutes to run emory cloth over the castings or not. Almost
everything you will ever see comming from high end factories or custom
builders worldwide qualifies as good by that deffinition.
If you actually want to know what above adverage to excellent and
exceptional lugwork and finishing is then let me know and I'll explain my
deffinition of that as well. Only a small fraction of a percent of frames
ever built, and especially these days, exhibit the characteristics of
exceptional design and finish. Talk is cheap and many lay claim to such;
but personally I believe the numbers are so small as to be staggering.
Most have either given up or never wanted to or knew how. Learning to
really recognize the qualities that define exceptional frame finishing
probably would require one to have a LARGE selection of frames in front of
you at once of various degrees of finish, and someone to actually knows a
lot about it to point out and guide you to a deeper understanding and
appreciation of the craft.
Hope that does a little bit to answer your question.
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
Marty
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Last edited by lotek; 09-16-08 at 12:17 PM.
09-16-08 | 12:55 PM
#5
Randomhead
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,930
Likes: 4,825
From: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
You would hope that the miters touch perfectly, that's a major component in frame strength. I have seen a high-end frame where they didn't. That was depressing. I don't know what you can tell from looking in the bottom bracket shell. I usually miter the seat tube to the down tube. On a cast bottom bracket, there is a clean line to scribe a miter to the bb diameter. On a pressed steel bb, there is no such clean line. Very difficult to judge the internal joins.
Usually, when people in here praise the lugwork on a bike, I have to bite my tongue. Modern lugwork has gotten a lot cleaner than most of the stuff done in the classic period. Those bikes were made to look good from standoff distance, not fingernail distance. And it really doesn't matter from a perspective of the bike's ride.
09-16-08 | 01:31 PM
#7
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 17,687
Likes: 12
From: n.w. superdrome
Bikes: 1 trek, serotta, rih, de Reus, Pogliaghi and finally a Zieleman! and got a DeRosa
<sniped>
Usually, when people in here praise the lugwork on a bike, I have to bite my tongue. Modern lugwork has gotten a lot cleaner than most of the stuff done in the classic period. Those bikes were made to look good from standoff distance, not fingernail distance. And it really doesn't matter from a perspective of the bike's ride.
Usually, when people in here praise the lugwork on a bike, I have to bite my tongue. Modern lugwork has gotten a lot cleaner than most of the stuff done in the classic period. Those bikes were made to look good from standoff distance, not fingernail distance. And it really doesn't matter from a perspective of the bike's ride.
They were tools to be used not objects d'art. I would agree that the lugwork of a Masi special compared to say one of Brian Baylis, Richard Sachs, or Sacha White's creations would look crude indeed.
Then there are the British builders who took much pride in lugwork ( think Hetchins or Bespoke )
and they were a major step up from the italian or french builders in terms of clean shorelines, and
filed lugwork.
Marty
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09-16-08 | 03:28 PM
#8
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,045
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From: Lancaster County, PA
Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
Cast lugs are a labor-saving element in frame construction. Stamped and/or hand-cut lugs take a great deal of time and labor to clean up, thin, and generally make them look good. So if what you treasure about vintage bikes is that they are handbuilt craft objects, then stamped lugs are "better." Especially if one finds their inevitable imperfections charming rather than irritating. There are folks within the vintage bike community who greatly prefer bikes built before about 1982 precisely because they tended to use stamped lugs and involved more hand labor (myself, for example); there are also plenty of folks who don't care a whit (or even prefer the cast lugs).
09-16-08 | 04:04 PM
#9
not to mention that investment castings can have all sorts of details built into the castings (like the Trek logo, for example) that used to require hand work with drill, jeweler's saw and pantograph engraver. Tighter tolerances, more precise angles, less finishing, less work altogether...it's all good if you're concerned with the bottom line of manufacturing: profit.
09-16-08 | 08:25 PM
#10
Randomhead
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 25,930
Likes: 4,825
From: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Here is a seat cluster I built back in '81 or so. I wasn't happy that I could see the join in the seat stay cap. I guess I've only built one frame with cast lugs, and this wasn't it. I wanted this to look good, but the intent was to build a good solid frame, not something so fancy someone would be afraid to ride it.
