This is a long story which has lasted all summer but began in February. Blame it on Craigs List and blame it on my inexhaustible desire to tinker and experiment. This is a story about my ongoing experiment with Brifters.

In February while surfing CL-Atlanta looking for a reliable road bike to leave there for family visits, I connected with mrmw who sold me an '83 Paramount. Well that was too much good bike to leave in a distant town, so in May it flew to NH with me on a Delta jet.



Well, once in the hills of NH, it needed more low-end climbing gears, so it received a wide range 7 speed freewheel. Then I started picking up NIB bargains on ebay. Centaur RD & FD for $40, calipers for $25 and a Mirage triple crankset for $20.

At this point I thought, "Why not try brifters?" I picked up these Modolo Morphos brifters for a reasonable price. The only problem, my short thumbs were not long enough to shift them. After a few rides I realized how dangerous it was to shift by crossing over with the other hand to shift.



So what to do? I still wanted to try brifters, but now my only choice for a 7 speed rear seemed to be Shimano Sora units. Still wanting to keep costs down, I eventually won, first the right brifter, and a month or more later the left brifter. The labels don't match, but they are the 7 speed and triple ones which were needed.



I installed them, and with just a few adjustments, I had the rear shifting perfectly. On to the FD and the triple. No luck! Granny to the middle ring no problem. But there was no finagling the chain up to the big outer ring. The FD would not move up and out enough.

Now I knew it was not the FD because it worked with the Morphos. After a little research, I found a reference to the BB size. I had used 115.5 Mirage BB which was good for a triple on oversize tubing. My 25 year old Paramount had the traditional size, so in this case I needed the 110mm Mirage BB, which arrived about 3 hours ago.

Everything was ready to go so I installed the shorter BB, the cranks, tested the rear, and tried the front. Still no luck. The Shimano Sora (marked "Triple") will not move the FD far enough. I can work the FD by hand and achieve the shift, but no way with the shifter. It appears to not have enough pull.

Any guidance, advice, or disappointing news, is deeply appreciated!

Had the same problem, it went away when I adjusted the cable tension for proper indexing.

oh my sounds like a long time coming for you you must have the patience of... well lots of patience.... good luck

The cable tension is tight when down in the granny and the FD "L" stop is adjusted in to have the chain just barely clear the rear portion of the cage.

Is there any way to increase the length of the pull? Or do I need to go to a Shimano FD, like this one?



Bmaxwell, I am a little discouraged.

I would be discouraged as well.... there is an answer out there just hang in there.

Simple: Bar-end shifters

-Kurt

That might be the final fix. With the original aero DiaComp levers with their gum hoods?

There's no chance the brifter was in the middle ring position when the cable length was set? Just a suggestion, not meant to assume. I've done it a time or two myself.

I also have a double on my R600 that would refuse to shift to the big ring until the chain was on the last two cogs on the rear. I finally got it figured out, but for the life of me I cannot remember what I did.,,,,BD

Does the shifter appear to have enough clicks to move completely over the 3 rings, or is it possibly just broken?

Pastorbob, Are you sure the cable is properly seated in the brifter?

It Will work, I just don't know how to explain How. I know I had the same problem when setting up my brifters, it just took some adjusting. This might be a reason to swing by the LBS?

I'd go for Super Record or C-Record w/black hoods. Maybe Mavic?

-Kurt

No. It was in the granny position. It will "click" three times. The third click makes the chain rub on the big ring, but not engage. At that point I can manipulate the FD throw arm by hand and complete a successful shift. I have not tried shifting it from different cogs in the rear.

There should be 4 clicks up and down, 5 different positions... I'd unwire and start from scratch. Maybe the cable was too tight to begin with so It wasn't going all the way down.

And like the Shimano MTB shifters, they are notorious for gumming up. Flush the mechanicals with tri flow or some LPS-3, while slapping the shifter through the all of the positions. Pull on the cable at the same time. The Brifters on the R600 will gum up again if it sits for a while. Usually popping it firmly through the gears will free it up again.,,,,BD


Oops, nm. If it's making the clicks, then something else is going on. Hmmm... How many clicks on a triple front again? I would have to go look at my Super Sport to be sure. There should be at least one "trim" click in there somewhere. It stops the FD cage from rubbing on certain combos....

Both Brifters were NIB so are in perfect working order.

I just went to the basement to check the cable as old fat guy suggested. It appears to be fine. It does click 4 times, my mistake. I tried shifting down to the smallest cog in the rear and could "force" the chain up to the big ring while holding the lever all the way to the inside. There's lots of rubbing and chatter, so maybe I need to realign the FD. It is a braze-on but uses a braze-on adapter, so I have some up and down and sideways room to move.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions! You have given me some good stuff to sleep on. It's been a long day and week, so I'm hitting the sack in a few minutes. Any other thoughts?

Quoting Sheldon Brown regarding Shimano STI/front derailleur compatibility:

"S.T.I. brake/shifters are indexed on the for the front as well as the rear derailer. This makes front shifting a bit easier, requiring no skill at all, but to make the system work as designed, you must use the specific chainring sizes and front derailers that were made to work with the system. This limits the rider's ability to customize gearing to suit indidivdual needs/riding styles."

That just brought a light bulb to my head - Bob, are the new rings ramped?

-Kurt

You need to try just one more set of brifters (well, ergos really). Campy 8 speed indexes perfectly with Shimano 7 speed cassettes (and I assume your freewheel as well). The left shifter also has 7 clicks, so you have plenty of travel, and can trim to avoid chain rub.

I happen to have a spare set of used 8 speed Veloce (I think) not in use...

Modern index shifting is always going to require pretty fussy settings. And, Brifters are notorious for being the most finicky of all shifting mechanisms to set up for perfect shifting. Still, millions of users can tell you they are great... it can be done... and it ain't even Rocket Science (well, not quite, anyway).

I'm going to assume you are using a Triple front derailleur. Although old Campy NR triple cranks used the standard Record Double front derailleur, a Triple front derailleur REALLY helps when using modern components.

A few basic preliminary things to check for the FD set-up which could be effecting things:

Is FD set too high above the Largest chainring?
Set the clearance of the FD outer cage plate so it is only around 1 to 3 mm above the Largest chainring.

Is your FD outer cage perfectly parallel?
Make sure the FD outer cage plate is perfectly parallel to the plane of the outer chainring (when sighting downward).

Are the clearances between the chain and the inner sides of the FD cage plates set correctly?

Chain on Largest cog & Inner chainring:

Set the FD Low Gear adjustment screw so the chain is only around 0.5 mm from the FD inner cage plate in this position. (...you can set this before even connecting the cable.)

Chain on Smallest cog & Outer chainring:

Again, set the FD High Gear adjustment screw so the gap between the chain and inside of the FD outer cage plate is only 0.5 mm.

Combining modern Campy and modern Shimano components should not present any problems... Although the design of Shimano derailleur cages, and the spacing between chainrings on the cranksets are "optimized" for the pull of the Shimano shifting mechanism, it should not be different enough to screw up the shifting as you describe it. And the pins and ramps of modern chainrings do a lot to help a chain climb up onto that large ring, so don't give up hope.

A couple more thoughts...

Is the chain too long?
Make sure your chain length is correct for the Rear derailleur being used. Check the manufacturer's recommendations, but basically when the chain is set on the smallest cog and the smallest chainring, the rear derailleur pulley cage will be at it's most "relaxed" position... The wrapped up chain links will now be running basically in a horizontal line below both pulleys (since the lower pulley will now be tilted back below the rear derailleur in this position) but the slack chain should never touch the pulleys above it.

And check that the chain gap (distance of the chain from upper pulley to the sprockets) is good - this is where that "B" adjusment screw for tilting the angle of a rear derailleur comes in.

All of this stuff is really pretty insignificant on old friction shifting, but all of the finicky settings of both the front and rear derailleurs are very important with modern components. And even those silly little cable adjustment barrels on the down tube derailleur cable housing stops really are useful for "finessing" the trim.

Once you get everything functioning harmoniously, you can be the judge whether the seemingly excruciating initial set-up is all worthwhile or just to quirky to be bothered with.

Personally, I prefer simple Rivendell-style pure friction shifters on bar-end pods, downtube bosses, or even stem shifters...

but I'm just getting old and stubborn and lazy.

Good Luck Amigo!

WOW, where do I begin. You're doing all the wrong things in the name of saving a few bucks. Did you ever hear of "Penny wise and pound foolish"? Your trying to save a few bucks in the short run but it's costing you big in the long run.

From what I see and you've mentioned, your bike is an unusual mix of friction Campy, post 2000 indexed Campy and Shimano. They just don't all mix unless you use friction. Seeing as you want indexing there's going to be a problem. My suggestion is use all Campy or all Shimano.

Junkyard is correct on the rear spacing. Problem is 8 sp Ergos actuation ratio is different than your Late model, post 2000, Campy der. So, it isn't going to work unless you get an 8 or pre 2000 9 sp Campy rear der. Those are soaring in price seeing as they're obsolete.

As for your front der problems. Shimano cranks center to center spacing on the chainrings is different than on your Campy crank. Seeing as Shimano is indexed spacing matters. Your Sora brifters work perfect on a Shimano crank. On a Campy they're off just a little. It isn't a big difference but you're experiencing what can go wrong.

My suggestion is to replace your Campy derailleurs with Shimano. Your indexing problems should go away. Next is to get a Campy rear wheel/cassette and brifters. That would also solve your problems also. You can always sell the original parts on ebay to recoup some of the cost. Vintage Campy is in demand. Who knows, you might even be able to turn a profit. Good luck

Whoa. IF spacing is indeed the problem, what are we here at C&V but not the kings of elementary FM (frikkin' magic) such as custom spacing a few cogs or rings? The merest addition of a washer or two when mounting the rings to the crank could solve this problem. I know because once I bought a Sakae SX triple off of ebay from a member and it had the nicest thinnest little washers carefully spacing the chain rings. I saved the washers. The crank and rings went on my wife's '85 Panasonic Sport 1000.

And understand, the dimension of stress relief and therapy inherent in the OP. When absorbed in this problem out in the shop, a near zen like state of mental and spiritual clarity and pervasive well-being ensues. If a challenge such as this did not naturally arise, it would have to be created.

Dr. MRMW's prescription:
(1) Successful treatment requires that shifter effectuated derailer movement match chain ring spacing exactly.

(2) There is only ONE way to do this. Unless you need so much therapy that your computer privileges would be suspended for twelve months while you anally measure cable pull between non-matching components. I wasn't born knowing this. Early on, here at C&V, flush with false success, Sheldon Brown remonstrated me about this very issue, from which I learned the hard way that IF PERFECTION IS THE IMPERATIVE THEN...

(3) Compromise is in order. You must match the derailer to the shifter--in this case the front derailer to the brifter. Which will allow you to join together the Campy crankset and Shimano 7 speed brifter. For instance--install an inexpensive Sora triple front derailer (in the words of the best mechanic I know 'front derailers are over rated...you could use a tree branch, for goodness sakes').

(4) Do a little googling/asking about triple chain ring spacing Campy vs Shimano

(5) Custom space the crank and you are guaranteed good to go.

One thing is sure. Indexing perfection is the only acceptable therapeutic outcome for such a patient. And from my experience as a misogynistic perfectionist indexer (Suntour Accushift shifters/derailers running Shimano SIS Hyperglide custom spaced cassettes) the above prescription is the only treatment sure to effect a cure.

Here's a start at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ch.html
...teaches that Shimano chainring spacing is 5mm, so the rings are 40, 45, 50mm from the seat tube centerline

Q. Can you accurately and reliably measure the Campy Mirage chain ring spacing? What is it? This might be the rosetta stone...

Once the chain ring spacing issue is resolved, to insure perfection ramped and pinned chain rings may be the way to go--just like we rely on Hyperglide engineered rear cogs to do the same.

PS--perhaps an alternate cable routing at the FD cable attachment point might effect an imperfect, yet working, solution? Me, I'd measure the Campy chain ring spacing first.

Well, I'm just out of bed and waiting for the coffee to brew. WOW! Lots' to absorb here! Where to start?

The Freewheel is a 7 speed Suntour. Shifting is perfect there, even under road conditions.

The derailleurs are Campy Centaur 2006 vintage, so not vintage! The rear is the long cage edition and the front is a triple braze-on model. I'm using an adapter ring to mount the FD.

The Campy Mirage triple crankset is 2006 or 2007. It came stock with ramps and pins and 52-42-32 chainrings. This is at the bottom for a modern Campy crankset. At $25 NIB and shipped, it actually looks well made and should last more then a ride or two.

I will recheck the FD alignment, as in parallel cages to the chainrings. This is challenging since there are quite a few bends in the cage walls. Clearance over the big ring is in the 1-2 mm range. When the FD is inward for the granny, the cage is set as close as possible to the chain.

mrmw suggests and I asked about switching to a modern Shimano triple FD. I pictured a 105 above. Those and the Sora model can be had for $25 or less. My other option is to take Junk Yard Bike up on his offer for his used Campy brifters. BTW, any one interested in the Modolo Morphos brifters?

Well, I hate to disappoint, but I need to work on the sermon first and the bike later. Plus there is no telling what Mrs. PB has in store for me when she gets up. I'll check back here later but won't have a chance to tuch the bike until later.

cs1 is right (I should have caught this after having read many of his posts in the past) - the 8 speed right shifter won't mate perfectly with your modern campy RD. It's possible the left shifter will work, however, as I don't think actuation ratio applies to FD's (I'm sure there must be an exception). It works like friction but with a bunch more clicks than the Shimano brifters you have.

Here's a great reference for mixing Campy and Shimano that may give you some other options:

https://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

Of course, mrmw's suggestion is the least expensive and most fun(?).

JYB,

Thanks for that link. I'm fine with the rear shifting so I jumped to the page on the FD. Here I found this suggestion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CTC - the UK's national cyclists' organisation

To make it work with less cable you can effectively shorten the arm by anchoring the cable on the other side of the screw, so it's less far from the pivot. See the diagram. If B is made 69% of A, it should work perfectly. The dimensions are not too critical however. We’ve only got two indexing steps to make and shifters always provide a bit of over-travel, with exact positioning of outer and inner being taken care of by the stop screws. When you’ve checked that it works alright you can file a new groove for the cable.

I'm going to go and give this a try and make certain the cage is aligned parallel to the rings. I'll report back soon.