actually mr r i did some research and learned that the masi america decals were during carlsbad era and that the masi is investment cast lugs. all on hoveys website. sorry but i thought you guys liked to trade info and see classic bikes. you dont have to help you know.

Interesting, because according to Roberson's build list my early '80 GC should be a 58, but it's a 60, in serial number and actual measurement.

Note this one has short Campy rear dropouts, brazed on brake cable guides, no USA decals, and a shorter fork rake with a bend all the way to the dropouts.

I always assumed that Roberson snuck a 60 into a run of 58s, but now I'm thoroughly confused.

mr. r. your amazing. howd you know thats the same bike ds had. acutally i traded him for my 68 paramount. so you like yamahas eh? happy you switched to bikes-no pollution and no noise

Just a second there, Englert. I see nothing previously posted by either of the fellows that could be addressed as "Mr. R" (repechage or Road Fan) that would or should elicit such an outlandishly pompous and rude reply.

I need not explain what is wrong with your comments or your logic. However, I've been biting my tongue for weeks about the casual disrespect you have shown the members on this forum. I don't think you realize that you have frequently conducted yourself towards other individuals here in this same condescending manner.

Whether they know more then you or not is not particularly the issue as I see it - it is the fact that you've made it a point to openly call out another individual as being lesser then you, for no apparent reason other then to make yourself look better (and I can guarantee that it does just the opposite). If you disagree with a statement, there is a respectful way to express your differences.

I don't wish to bring personal judgments into the foray, but I would be withholding a particular irk of mine if I did not mention that I find such accusations even more revolting when they come from a fellow who on multiple occasions tried to justify Mario Confente's involvement with Masi - despite all evidence to the contrary - and was proven to be unable to properly date his own Paramount.

This said, I can not nor intend to explain why this is the case with you. Just remember that no member on this forum is superior to another, with exception to those who make express attempts to put themselves on a pedestal. Those individuals, by doing so, voluntarily relinquish their previously equality for community-wide contempt for their snobbery.

Don't be a snob.

-Kurt

The red-orange finish (I call it baby-aspirin pink or Campbell's cream of tomato, with milk) goes at least as far back as 1976. That's when the founder of our racing club bought his in that color.

I only wish the taxonomies produced by guys like Hovey and Sheldon Brown classified fork bends as thoroughly as they did decals. Frame builders often used whatever was in supply, including decals, double-plate, Fischer, or semi-sloping fork crowns, forged or cast lugs, etc. But their fork bends tend to be unique and consistent, at least for a given range of head angles.

The dropouts and cable guides suggest to me that Englert's bike is older than '80. And I doubt it's been repainted because most refinisher-types seem to prefer sexier colors.

Ever seen the movie "Breaking Away" 1979, I think its the same bike in that movie. Everybody should check the movie out its pretty cool.

Masi California was pretty consistent as far as what went into the GC's decal-wise, fork-crown-wise, and lug-wise. That's one reason why the variations are notable in many cases. Masi was also fairly consistent as far as geometry - it's one thing that made a GC a GC. According to Dave Moulton, even Dave Tech's GC's had the basic Masi geometry despite Tech's well-documented penchant for very quick-handling bikes, though I don't know this first hand. Also according to Moulton, Masi had a template for the GC that subcontractors were expected to follow, I believe in the form of an exemplar frame. The fork bends done at Carlsbad were consistent as they were done on the same equipment, and Masi was known for its relatively graceful, gradual bend beginning up toward the crown. Lippy's bikes in particular tend to diverge from this model because he didn't have access to either the equipment or the template or both (or the issue didn't concern him). His forks have a pretty noticeable dogleg. They also tend to have Dubois lugs past the point most Masis had IC lugs, which is why a photo of the reverse of the seatlug would be very helpful in the case of Joe's bike.

Joe's bike, (ex DS) has cast lugs, at least at the seat lug.

Some Lippy built Masis had the stamped, some the cast, I think that was part of the problem for him. The time involvement was not consistent. But the pay was the same. Never got to ask about if the cast lug variations or lack of them were a factor.

If you think abut it, the lower head lug will differ the most except for the extreme sizes, where many might change. The top tube gets longer, the fork length the same, the head angle the same (or very close), the lower lug must adjust to fit the intersection.

Brian Baylis suggested the Master frames that Faliero made or brought were wrong in some sizes, at least to Mario's thinking and were not used under his supervision. Eisentraut was scratching his head on those when he came to measure them, if I remember correctly Brian advised Albert that they were not used in some cases. The guy who had the knowledge was long out the door. No ISO 9000 standards there.

Breaking Away Masi was a 54 cm. Lots of differences elsewhere. Rent the DVD and pause it to study.

And watch a repainted Sears Free Spirit masquerading in its place for stunt shots.

-Kurt

No Yamahas, not my taste, no motorcycles. Life insurance won't cover me piloting one of those or an airplane.

whoa, kurt, your totally wrong there. what i say is the truth, i dont know that much about vinatge bikes. im totally not a snob about vintage bikes unless its to the guys i see riding around on carbon. you guys are great and if i offended anyone-sorry-sorry-sorry. you guys know more than me thats why im asking you questions-not to be condesending- anyway the comment by mr repecage that i just want to pick your brains but do no research on my own struck me as a little offesive thats all. anyway if i offended you im sorry, i appreciated all the help you gave earlier

well,mr. r , ds does remember you and he said he rode motorcycles with you. also said that repecage was part of a motorcycle-i always wondered what that was.

Kurt is correct, but to see what he means the movie needs to be watched frame by frame periodically.

The Repechage rounds, or reps' are for those in match sprint bicycle races who lose initially and come through the reps' to get literally a Second Chance at the finals. Repechage is second chance in French basically, I left off the punctuation as too many oddball keystrokes to place it on an American keyboard. Also seen often in Tennis.

ok mr repechage, ds is totally confused about you. can you give us a hint about how you knew that i got the masi form ds? cr website perhaps. the main question is--did you ever meet ds and that is how you saw the bike? please let us know and end our curiosity

joe, some of us are justifiably concerned about letting our real identities out on the web. There's some bad crap going down on the internet, and protecting real identites is just a good way to help stay out of the soup.

An interesting aside. I bought something on eBay yesterday, and was notified that my card wouldn't work. Concerned, I contacted my bank and found out that the whole State of California was temporarily blocked, as the fraud level was completely unacceptable.

sorry to hear that mr L. i am paranoid about ebay as well as other computer stuff. i was just curious about mr repechage and his uncanny knowledge especially about how he knew he got my masi from ds considering that ds and i live close together up by the sierras and not many vintage bike people go up there that i know of. anyway, i was hoping for a little hint about how he got the information, i didnt want him to give away any id information. i hope every thing goes ok with you

Joe, if you want to have a personal discussion with someone, why not pm them?