Just wondering if anyone has analyzed the costs/benefits of a modern IGH versus a vintage one. Pros/cons, etc.

Thanks so much.

John

There are just so many vintage ones around for next to nothing, unless you want the 8 speeds, it hardly makes sense to go new.
You can get 3 speed with coaster for around $45 used, and $63 new, that is the best comparison for something a little hard to come by. But $10 used and $60 new is a stretch.
The 8 speeds go for around $135 at best, w/o the shifter.

I am under the impression that most modern hubs don't require oil, because they are greased and sealed at the factory. If that is correct, it could be a pro or con depending on your perspective.

The new SRF3 hub doesn't require oil and doesn't leak. It has a beautiful aluminum shell with thick flanges that don't require spoke washers. It has no neutral between second and third. I paid $53 for mine. I haven't found any $10 AWs, but if I did, how would I know if they were in good shape or in need of repairs?

Invisible wheel shot of my hub:

Have you ridden the SRF3 hard? Can it take standing on the pedals? How does it shift?

John

Yes.

Yes.

Very well.

And it's real pretty, did you say that?

So where do you buy a 4" tire to fit on that little bitty rim/hub thing?

Modern hubs quite often have better spacing of the gear steps than the old AW Sturmey Archer. I am not sure that the non oil bath hubs are an improvement. We will know in about 40 years after they have seen some service. I know the old AW is all but bullet proof, biggest two issues with it being the neutral between 2nd and 3rd and the steps between the gears. Other than those two quirks the hubs apparently will last forever with minimal maintenance. I have one with somewhere around 30,000 miles on it. When I tore it down to re-grease the bearings the only "issue" I found was a couple of weak pawl springs. The insides were clean and ready to go some more. FWIW that particular hub has been in my possession since 1982 and is probably a 1971 hub (no date). When the bike was in regular use it got a small squirt of oil in the hub every couple of weeks. Somehow I don't think the modern hubs will be able to do that with their sealed systems. I believe that the Shimano Alfine is supposed to be torn down and dipped in oil occasionally.

Aaron

I have both and find each has it's place. For a modern commuter, the SRAM i9 is very nice. For an off road or all weather bike, the Alfine is great. I just ordered an old school 5 speed SA hub for a new project, I wanted some retro. No experience with the Rohloff, the new Shimano and SRAM products have their moments so the real benefit is the extra gears. I still have to take care when shifting to let up slightly, otherwise the hub gets stuck or shifts to a different gear than the one I'm selecting.

wrt oil bath, I've switched one of my Alfines, the Nexus and my i9 to oil bath. The oil bath improves shifting performance and the coast down performance is better.

I agree, if you're looking for a project, the old SA hubs on the 'bay look tempting, better be prepared to learn how to tear one down. For $53, the new version is a bargin.

Just to be clear:
Comparing like-to-like, i.e. three-speeds, today's Sturmey AW-NIG family (SRF3, etc.) has exactly the same gear spacing as the old AW which hit the market in the late 1930s. The SRAM iM3 and T3 hubs have the same gear spacing as the old Sachs Torpedo 3s dating back for a half century or more.

These aren't your grandfather's three speed hubs, though. The SunRace built -NIG hubs actually have quite a number of internal improvements vis-a-vis the old British models. The SRAM iM3 shifts instantly under moderate pedal pressure, has a simple and nicely thought out cable attach/detach, and one model will accept a std 6-bolt brake disc. The coaster brake iM3 model uses roller actuation. The Shimano SG-3D55 has an alluminum shell, a roller clutch instead of a ratchet style freewheel, and will accept a center mount disc.

tcs

With seven or more gears, definitely go modern. The Sachs 12 speed was a boat anchor that nearly sunk the company. Sturmey's seven speed and first generation 8 speed - the last of the British designs - had issues. Shimano's first generation seven speed was delicate and short lived.

tcs

Provided you're not afraid to clean one up, the best way to get an AW hub is to buy an old bike that is equipped with one. I've found that when most folks sell a bike, they don't think of what that bike is worth in parts. They'll look at the bike as a crappy old 3 speed and sell it for $20... that way you get the hub and all the accompanying gear for it.

I recently bought a very clean Schwinn Collegiate 3 speed for $30... kept the hub and shifter... and by the time I parted it out I was about $10 ahead. So it was as if someone gave me a clean AW hub and $10!

Plus I love to tinker with stuff... and even though I don't mind tearing into a hub, most of the time I find a rebuild unnecessary. A wipe down and a couple of squirts of oil and you're good to go.

I've only ridden classic SA hubs and I like them. But price is a big factor for me and it's WAY cheaper to find an old bike with one than to buy one. When you factor in having a shop build the wheel even a free hub is going to cost you a decent amount to make into a wheel. If you're confident that you can build it yourself then that's a different story, but I don't think there are that many people that would be confident in building their own wheel.

Another reason I prefer the classic hubs is the shifter. I really like the classic SA trigger shifter. Maybe it was a bad experience with twist shifters, but I just don't like them and I think all of the 7+ speed hubs use the twist shifters.

I'm especially fond of the AW when equipped with a 22 tooth cog. I have several AWs around and all of them work wonderfully after just a minor clean up and re-oil. If I were to buy a three speed hub, the traditional AW would be it.

On the other hand, if I wanted more gears I'd go with a modern internal gear hub. I like the looks of the Sachs and Rohloff hubs. The new Sturmey Archer offerings also seem like they'd be nice. I guess I'd give any of those a try. I'm not crazy about Shimano ones simply because I'm not crazy about Shimano parts in general. Some of the worst parts failures I've had on bicycles came from brand new Shimano stuff.

I prefer internal gear hubs to any derailleur system.

that is indeed a very pretty hub!! the "new" sunrace-sturmey archer have really gotten their act together! awesome price on that hub, as well.

Well, I do most of my riding on a folding bike with the new SA 8 hub, and it is the nicest shifting hub I've used. The gears are spaced very nicely; nicer than on the Shimano 8 speed hub. I wouldn't recommend the SA 8 for a bike with big wheels, though; the way it's geared, you'd have to use a tiny little chain ring, and it would look very strange. There's no way you could use one with an old Raleigh cottered crank.

The thing about the 8sp hub is that it totally changes the way you ride a bike. On my folding bike, my pedaling cadence is extremely constant, like typically within 5% of 100 rpm. This makes the steps between the gears of the AW feel very big to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the AW; it's just a different riding experience, that's all.

I find the AW to be a very high-geared hub, considering that over the years it's proven to be best as a commuter or casual rider's hub. These types of riders don't generally push the envelope down hills, but do indeed need some help getting up (commuters often have to carry stuff around with them, and casual riders tend to struggle with some hills). The only second-guess I have for the AW is that there was not a special "low gear" variation of it for these types of riders. Even with a 22 tooth cog, it's still a little on the high side. I guess that's where the modern stuff comes in with more gears. Still, I like the concept of a "hill tour-climber" 3 speed: basically an AW with internals modified for the rider who lives in a hilly region or needs to haul around a lot of junk, and who tends to relax some or coast down the big hills.

A person's self confidence is beyond the perview of this forum, but wheel building isn't that tough.

Still available! And the new ones work with the old hubs, and the old ones work with the new hubs.

There are Rapidfire (dual paddle) shifters and brifters available for Shimano 8s.

HTH,
tcs

Many cyclists would say it's the small wheels that look strange!

I surveyed 120 new models of Trek adult bicycle; 89 of them had from the factory "tiny little chainrings" that would produce a mainstream gear range with an SA8 hub.

Yes, these "tiny little chainrings" were the inner ring of a triple crank; still, I have to conclude small chainrings are common items and have wide acceptance in today's bike market.

tcs

IGHs have only total range and intermediate steps. The "highness" or "lowness" of the overall gearing is determined by factors external to the hub: the chainwheel/rear cog ratio and wheel size.

Best,
tcs

Having experience with the Alfine and the i9, I have to say the Alfine is much more robust. The i9 needs a new dustcap on every overhaul, except they aren't available yet. The Alfine shifts buttery smooth, the i9 shifts like the old SA AW hub, clunk. Even gear steps and discount pricing are the only way the i9 can compete against an Alfine.

True, but if you're talking about updating an old bike, such as an old English three speed bike with a 46T chain wheel, you are up against limitations: changing the crank is not practical; you have to get the gearing right by finding the right cog for the rear, and the options are somewhat limited.

not to mention that sturmey archer recommended against gearing an AW too low because of the risk of it tearing itself to shreds from the extra torque. i think they recommended no larger than a 22T cog with a 46T chain ring.

Ah, that would explain why they didn't make 'em!