Well, I'd like to just go ahead and post a picture of my "unreal" 1983 Paramount made in Waterford, WI. I guess it's just a forgery?




Saying Schwinn employees, which included Richard Schwinn, who bought the Waterford Schwinn plant, "had nothing to do with Paramount," is like saying the Pope has nothing to do with Roman Catholicism.

Re-read the history. Schwinn moved Paramount production from Chicago after 1979 to Waterford, where in 1981 they began making the next generation of Paramounts. Paramounts continued to be made through 1994. Waterford tried to buy the Paramount name, but Schwinn would not sell it.

Regardless of what the masters say, I like this frame, both as an expertly restored piece of US cycling history (pre-bike boom!) and the foundation of what could be a terrific rider. The Waterford link-up in the ebay ad was a little gratuitous, but I'm not going to let that detract from my respect for the guy who bought the bike or my enjoyment of the bike.

Schwinn Paramount:



Schwinn Paramount:




Schwinn Paramount:




Schwinn Paramount:




NOT Schwinn Paramounts:







-Kurt

not in my book (nice Gators btw)... but apparently in that particular seller's book...

Don't shoot the messenger here, but my understanding is that several people around here apparently know the guy and this has become somewhat personal. My point was that according to "Bob" (or whatever the seller's name is) no real Paramount was made after they left Chicago (read that description again).

C'est la vie...

Again, I am still waiting for that frame to sell for a grand, if it is that precious... There should be several takers around here lining up for it, it appears, unless words are just that and do not translate into action...

Kurt, you are too funny!

Hmmm....

tell me again where did Richard Schwinn work before he bought the Paramount Plant (and for how long) and which bikes did his plant produce?

Thanks.

E

Here's another decal on my 1983 unreal Paramount. Is it just a forgery? And what do you mean by "nice Gators?"



Here are the seller's own words:

Certainly he looses points for "in the early 80s." Maybe he meant to type "early 90s"? If so he was referring to the Match and Serotta built Paramounts of the late '90s as "not real" because by that point the Schwinn family no longer owned Schwinn.

Maybe scooper or others can be more specific about where Richard worked, but I believe he worked in the Chicago facility until they moved Paramount to Waterford, and then he moved up there to assist in the production and management.

So, are you implying he is a Schwinn employee who had nothing to do with Paramounts?

the tires...

beats me... I am just the messenger of a flaky attempt to connect that bike with Waterford. A restoration done at a competitor of a bike restoration shop where he (apparently) is a half-owner (IMHO all Paramounts are real...)

That was a rhetorical question. He was out for a while then headed their Greenville, MS plant before he bought the Waterford plant. Here is an interesting interview of him:

https://www.terrybicycles.com/weblog/...d_schwinn.html

and this is not meant to "put down Schwinns". In many places, even here, I have said that they are one of the best values in the vintage market. Heck, I am a proud owner of one (1987 Super Sport).

Richard Schwinn managed the Greenville, MS, plant for several years until it closed in the early nineties.

Edward Schwinn, Jr., Richard's older brother, shut down Paramount production at the Chicago plant in 1979 because the Paramounts then being produced were not using the latest technology. Ed Jr. picked Marc Muller to build and staff a new design and production facility in Waterford, Wisconsin. Marc and the Paramount Design Group began building the Paramounts in Waterford using Henry James investment cast lugs and offering a choice of tubing in late 1980 or early 1981.

When Schwinn declared bankruptcy in late 1992 and the company was purchased from the bankruptcy court in early 1993 by Zell-Chillmark Fund and Scott Sports Group, the new owners wanted the Paramount name, but not the Waterford PDG facility. Marc Muller and Richard Schwinn partnered to purchase the Waterford facility from the bankruptcy court, named their company Waterford Precision Cycles, and continued to build Paramounts for the new Schwinn owners under contract until late 1994, when the new owners put the Paramount "to sleep" until 1998 when Schwinn contracted with Match Cycles to build lugged Reynolds 853 steel Paramounts, and with Ben Serotta to build Ti Paramounts.

Richard Schwinn and Marc Muller are still owners/partners in Waterford Precision Cycles today, and just built the 70th anniversary lugged Reynolds 953 steel Paramounts for Schwinn.

Stan,

In your estimation, before the subcontract to build Paramounts in '93/'94, how many Paramounts did Richard Schwinn (or a team under his leadership) built in his lifetime? Easy multiple choice:

a. 0
b. <15
c. 100
d. 1000

thanks for an honest answer in that previous post...

E

How many Colnago Masters did Ernesto Colnago build?
How many Benotto 3000's did Giacinto Benotto build?
How many Masis did Faliero Masi build?
Are Confente-built Masis fake?

Is a Basso a Basso if one of Basso's framebuiders was named D'Arienzo?
Is a D'Arienzo a Basso if D'Arienzo built it in the Basso factory for Basso?
If D'Arienzos were made by Basso by D'Arienzo for Gary Silva, are they fake?

Is the party of the first part really the party of the first part?
Is the party of the second part really the party of the second part?
Or is the second part of the first party the first part of the second party?
Are bicycles the meaning of life?
Is life the meaning of bicycles?
Is the first part of the bicycle the second part of life, or is the second part of life the first part of the bicycle?

Does Basso care?
What about Basso's mother in law?

-Kurt

a., although he had worked at the Chicago plant in various capacities since he began interning there during the summers while he was going to college, and had learned the business from sweeping floors to managing production at Greenville over the years.

Kurt,

methinks you are missing my point... and the point here is a quasi-dishonest ebay seller trying to make a connection between the "real" (his words) Paramounts and Richard Schwinn's Waterford establishment.

There is not a blasting connection (esp. for a darn frame set built in the 50s and supposed restored by a competitor of the seller's restoring company in the 21st century).

That's all I am saying... (other that the usefulness of such a frameset in the 21st century as far as paying $1000 for it, and let's keep that as a different discussion) and it is about this particular frameset and this particular auction and buyer be aware based on (over) statements made...

I'll concede that the seller is a little mixed up when it comes to Schwinn history, but I'd pay $1000 in a heartbeat for that frameset if it were a 24 inch frame.

In the mid-fifties, I believe Schwinn offered Paramounts in a choice of Accles & Pollack tubing or Reynolds 531 (both seamless drawn double-butted tubing), so I don't think the "Chrome Molybdenum" decal is correct (although I could be mistaken).

Another real Paramount (and an excuse to post a photo...

Yes, pastorbob, it is a terrible, nasty, bad-bad-bad forgery and you should divest yourself of its evil influence immediately. I am here to help you cast off this sinful abomination. Send it to me and I will make sure it gets the fate it deserves. No need to thank me, I'm happy to help . . .





It's getting a little thick in here. Maybe we should all take a deep breath and sing a rousing chorus of "Kumbayah."

Drool, drool, drool.

-Kurt

Drool, drool, drool...

I certainly am glad we are separated by mountains, rivers, plains, deserts, more mountains, SF Bay, and a few thousand miles. Hopefully this will keep my unreal Paramount safe!

Amen to the second part of your post!

And add my drool to the puddle. I've always said "Jonny was very good" to receive such a treasure, especially at the fantastic price he paid. Too bad it's now discovered it to be a an unreal Paramount like so many others which we were duped into saving.

I've read and re-read the seller's description and I don't see anything dishonest, misleading, or blatantly fake, except "...Waterford Cycles, who made the last real Paramounts for Schwinn as the Paramount Design Group in the early 80s...."

I'll give the seller the benefit of the doubt that he meant to type "early 90s," or he was mixed up about the decade the 3rd generation of Paramounts ceased to be made.

Just because Richard Schwinn did not come on the scene at Waterford until the early '90s, does not make the Paramounts made there from 1981 until the "early '90s" less then Paramounts.

Here is a Waterford restored antique track Paramount from their site. Looks a great deal like the restoration done to the seller's '50s touring model.

https://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...nt_antique.php

Add more drool to the growing pond.

That's a drop dead gorgeous bike!

I can't get the smiley symbols to attach to my posts, but envision a big thumbs up.

That's another thing - is a Don Mainland-built second-generation Paramount not a Paramount?

-Kurt

Hell yes it is!

The whole notion that a Paramount had to be built in the Chicago cage to be considered a "real" Paramount in complete nonsense. Heck, most of the Paramounts built from 1938 until well into the fifties were built in Emil and Oscar Wastyn's shop.

Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner!

-Kurt

i think the point the selller was trying to make was...having a paramount refinished by waterford is about as close as you can get to having a factory restoration. if i were getting a paramount restored, waterford is where i would have it done. he's not trying to say this a waterford built paramount.

elliot bay does restorations it appears, but i'm sure they don't care much about competition from any other restoration shops and i wouldn't call them restoration shop. i think they do just fine with all the bill davidson frames coming out of that place...
i'm pretty sure they don't mention anything about restorations on their website. most of the work is probably stuff the seller of this frame has them do as he seems to be a huge bike collector judging by the bikes on his flickr page and all the vintage bikes he has hanging in the shop.

From the Elliott Bay site:

"We build custom titanium and steel road, mountain, touring, track, and tandem frames. In addition, we offer custom paint, frame repairs, restorations and more. "