WNG

Thanks for all your efforts Charles!! Just read your update and the large file is d'loading fine as I type.
Wife isn't going to be very happy with me, with my head dug into the Sutherland's the next few nights.

Charles Wahl

I have a sort of synergistic idea concerning how folks show appreciation: consider buying a wool jersey for yourself in the group order. We're at 33 plus 5 maybes. If we can get up over 40, there will be a significant discount for everyone. You get a jersey for a decent rate, and do everyone else in the order a favor. Here's the thread.

noglider 

So is this work not covered by copyright any more for some reason?

buck mulligan

No, of course it is. The term of copyright is currently the life of the author plus 70 years. If your personal morality requires strict compliance with copyright, you probably won't want to download either of these files. However, note that much of the material in Sutherland's is strictly a compendium of factual information (e.g., specifications), and this information is most assuredly NOT subject to copyright protection (the leading case on this subject came from the Supreme Court, and involved a telephone book copied from a competitor's telephone book - the defendant got caught because the plaintiff had intentionally included fictitious listings specifically to catch plagiarism). Any original selection or arrangement of facts will qualify for "thin" copyright protection. And, of course, purely editorial content is subject to full copyright protection.

I am not passing judgment, one way or another, on anyone who chooses to download this material or, in the alternative, chooses not to. Neither should anything here be construed as legal advice per se - I just wanted to offer some general information about how copyright does, and does not, apply to this material.

noglider 

My understanding is that copyright protects a particular expression of an idea but not the idea (or information) itself. So you'd have to reword it for it not to be a copyright violation.

I'm not an angel. I sometimes make illegal copies. But I don't publicize it and offer it on public message boards, if you know what I mean.

buck mulligan

That's pretty close to being right. The distinction between "idea" and "expression" is exactly correct, but original expression may require more than simply rewording - a paraphrase may still constitute an infringement, depending on the situation. And, on the other hand, purely factual information that can only be expressed in a limited number of ways generally may be copied exactly. It gets complicated, and quite fuzzy, which is why I like the subject so much.

Well, I see your point. There is certainly some risk associated with it, although a copyright holder is likely to simply send a cease-and-desist notice, rather than open with a summons and complaint, at least at first. I certainly suggest that people think about copyright, and familiarize themselves with the law (there are SO many myths out there about what copyright is and what it is not!) - and then, once informed, make their own decisions based on both ethical and practical considerations.

Mike Mills

Got it! ty

dannyg1 

Thanks Charle's!!!

Mike Mills

psst! Is this legal or a copyright violation? ssh!

Charles Wahl

I strenuously recommend that anyone wishing to observe both spirit and letter of copyright law in punctilio not download anything -- no Sutherland's, no vintage catalogs, don't buy any reproduction brake hoods or decals for your bikes either. Read Sutherland's in the library, if yours hasn't thrown their copy out.

CV-6 

Dang, Charles....I had to look up punctilio

Charles Wahl

It's good for the gray matter (and mine's only getting grayer).

mkeller234

Hey Lynn, this is very generous of you.... and of Charles too of course. I am able to connect to your FTP site but the server disconnects, should I be using a program like fetch?

CV-6 

I use FireFTP in Firefox. Just logged in with no problem, once I spelled the password right. I just looked at Fetch and it appears to be an FTP client that should work. I was also able to make it work in Exploder without an FTP client.

Charles Wahl

Fetch should work. I used it for years on Mac with no problem, but now that it's payware, I've been using ClassicFTP; very straightforward.

mkeller234

Excellent! I mentioned fetch since I use it at work. I downloaded ClassicFTP directly from Apple, thank you for the heads up.

DiegoFrogs

I recall this being an issue with the Barnett's manuals about 5-6 years ago. If memory serves, one of the forums about bicycles made most of the chapters available just before the manual was re-issued or something like that. I thought that it was kosher, and I looked at some of the important chapters, downloaded them, enjoyed them, and read them again.

Later, when the interested parties had tried to remove them, I recognized that what I had done was wrong. I deleted them immediately. I felt guilty, but soon forgot. But now, you remind me of what I've learned, which cannot be deleted. Soon, when I finish school and get some amazing job (ahemmmm... anybody here in the semiconductor industry?) I'll buy the most recent version, because I know it has value, having enriched my life. If the author's work didn't have value, then why are you reading it and distributing it (and asking, tongue in cheek, for valuables in return)?

DiegoFrogs

Edit: Apparently I violated my own intellectual property with a double post...

electrik

I wonder if it is still under copyright? Maybe if this was the current version DiegoFrogs would have a stronger case.

noglider 

I think the default length of a copyright is 50 years.

DiegoFrogs

Also, I'm thankful to see noglider broach the subject. I might have been cowardly otherwise and kept my mouth shut...

For those who think the opposition just has a rectum/hair disorder, due to my training I have no ethical choice but to tell you what I've learned. A lot of people don't recognize the effort required to write useful or entertaining material, but it's substantial. If the author takes measures to protect his revenue stream from theft, people should recognize that.

Your decisions, however, remain your own.

cuda2k

for what it's worth, I've been using FileZilla for FTP. Works great, and I use it often considering how often I upload a new version of VeloBase.com up to my hosting server.

noglider 

Right. It's not just a pesky law. I used to write software, and I'm a part-time musician. While I'm not currently creating copyrighted works, I might do so. I think my rights should be protected, so I respect those of others.

I make small exceptions. I consider them small, and my rationale is not legal, but I feel I am complying with the spirit of the law. I suspect that whoever owns the copyright to out-of-print bike catalogs would be pleased that we are sharing images of them.

DiegoFrogs

The reason I think there had, at that time, been a recent update is because there is often some event like that to force the hand of the publisher or author.

I disagree with a lot of the issues surrounding publishers. For instance, having 27 editions of an engineering textbook on something as fundamental and relatively unchanged as Statics. Often, you'll find that the homework problems have been renumbered or reorganized, but nothing to justify 27 updates.

I'm not some industry shill. I just think that written content takes substantial effort, and that effort should either be rewarded, or it has no value, and you wouldn't bother stealing it in the first place.

Mike Mills

Oh, I thought this download was the equivalent of you lending us your hardcopy to look at. We are acquaintences of yours and we're not in this for profit. I appreciate you sharing your copy with me. I'll give it back when I am done.