Yes, that about sums it up but your post has made me think about this a bit more. Having no experience of selling on ebay I learnt a bit about it from reading what you wrote and as a result have changed what I think a bit. I still find it rude to ask a seller without a BIN what their BIN is but I can see the point in asking a seller if he would care to add a BIN. As you point out, it might be welcomed. That and making an offer seem fine.

Another thing, I see now that my original post had 2 points and yes, as you said, I did say I thought it was sleazy to try and get an advantage by asking what a sellers BIN was. I subsequently made a hash of explaining myself. I don't think it is sleazy to engage a seller and suggest adding a BIN or making an offer to end the auction but I do think putting a seller on the spot by asking what their BIN is when one isn't included is rude and a bit of a sleazy way to go about things.

Thanks for taking the time to lay out your thoughts.

I have used eSnipe for years. Few reasons:

1) I'm one less bidder in the fray to raise prices.
2) I can set and forget the bid. eSnipe also e-mails me 90 minutes beofre the auction close, so I get a chance to cancel my eSnipe bid if I like.
3) Bid groups. Say I want a Shimano 600 RD and there's auctions for 5 of them active. I can put eSnipe bds for all 5 in a bid group at whatever bid I want to make for each auction individually. eSnipe bids per my instructions on each auction in turn and when the first auction is won, the remaining bids are automatically cancelled. It's brilliant.

Whether you bid your maximum in the first minute of the auction or the last five seconds, if you don't have the high bid you lose. If you want to beat snipers bid your maximum right out of the gate. People who get mad losing to snipers don't understand the dynamics and methods of bidding.

Really, if you're bidding in the last 10 seconds you're sniping, you're just using the software between your ears. Guess you'll just have to time your manual bid in for the last 3 seconds of the auction.

the times I've seen people ask for BIN it was because the seller didn't know what they had and someone wanted it cheap. One antique I saw had an opening bid of $10 and went for thousands. They probably could have gotten it if they gave the guy an honest (but low) BIN price, but of course they wanted it really cheap

That's the impression I've got. I believe in fair trade and deals with which both sides are happy, then and later. It makes me think of employers who want to pay the least possible and get the maximum return. I employ 3 people and believe it is in my interest to look after their interests and pay them as much as I can. It's also true that, 'You pay peanuts, you get monkeys'. Same with buying bicycle parts, I want to deal with people and look forward to dealing with them again some time. It's nice to get a bargain, of course, but but I wouldn't want to get one by being underhand.

Sorry Dawes-man I'm confused... this admission makes me ask why on earth any of this matters you?

Why not just leave people who DO deal on eBay to do what they like?

It's like me starting a discussion about a Ford Explorer, saying it's a bad car, when I've neither driven one nor am I in the market for one... what would be the point?

A desire for knowledge.

Or it works the other way:

Gios Torino pantographed NR seatpost, opening at $5.99. Contacted buyer and asked if he'd considered or would consider adding a BIN. The reply was a polite no, which I accepted. On the final day of the 7-day auction there were still no bids. With two hours to go, the first bid was placed and the second with about 45 minutes remaining - we're up to $10.95 or so at this point.

I put in my max bid of $175 at 30 seconds. I won the post at $56 and was absolutely floored. Since I am in the pupa stage of getting stuff together for a future GT build, I could deal if my $175 was topped. I guess you could say I was testing the waters, although I do know that Gios panto stuff is like gold on Ebay and has been for some time.

The bottom line was that I would have offered the guy $175 if he'd have put a BIN on it, and I was willing to pay that much at auction. In this case, it worked out in my favor that the auction went to the end. Again, I try not to overanalyze Ebay anymore than I have to.

Sniping: for me, I do like to wait to avoid all the pumping up of the final value, sure. But what I really like is the last-seconds 'thrill of the chase'. Bidding 'early and often', as sellers seem to request more and more frequently, just isn't as exciting to me. If I win, cool - if not, better luck next time!

I concur - When I'm bored I troll thru unsold completed auctions looking for cheap stuff to ask about. This is a GREAT way to increase your bike spending! I make a fair offer - ha - what I think is a fair offer - and if I hear back, it's usually a done deal. Sometimes they relist for me, sometimes the crooks just ask for the money. It's all spelled out in an email sent thru EBay's system, so the guy risks getting busted to save 50 cents in fees.

Me, I just need one more broken Schwinn Stingray brake lever in my parts bin - I'll stop at nothing!!!

I think Dawes-man was thinking out loud.You toss an idea out to see what other folks think. You know, turn it around a bit, see it from a different angle.

Sciencemonster- I usually do it on items that I was watching but got zero bids.It is usually a bike that needs a little work, and the seller is just a seller of "stuff", not a fixer of bikes. He wants it gone, and I'm bored and like bikes-win win

As a seller thats the chance you take for being an honest seller with integrity. I've declined many 'Buy Now' offers, most of the time its worked to my benifit but on occasion I've sold an item for less than the 'Buy Now' offer. What irks me is when the cocky m'***r emails me and says, "ha ha, should have taken my offer". Whatever. I take pride in how I do buisness and respect the rules, regulations and fee structure of ebay and paypal. Both Ebay and Paypal are providing me a service, the least I can do is play their rules.

If the seller agrees its not really short changing....unless the seller has no clue as to he/she has. IMHO its mostly buyers who know that realisticly afford the item.

Adding a 'Buy Now' is OK in my eyes, the seller is simply hedging his/her chances. Ending the auction and opening a new auction with 'Buy Now' is OK in my eyes as well. Both tactics are within Ebay and Paypals policys and procedures. Regardless, I still think its shady of a buyer to ask.....

Well, if you cant afford and have to resort to such tactics perhaps you shouldnt be bidding at all? In the long run all it does is drive up prices. Thats the harm.

You are of course correct about the cocky side of some people - that's just being an a******. Since he politely declined, I didn't push (I would've given him a number had he opened a dialogue) - but I did want a shot at the post. It just so happened on this occasion I got my shot at much less than I had 'budgeted' for.

Any time I've ever requested this I have always requested that he ADD a BIN - not conclude the auction off-Ebay. That way, both buyer and seller are covered and Ebay gets it's pound of flesh. Sure, some other lookers that might/might not be buyers might howl, but I have to think this happens an awful lot out there. Some people might not want to wait 7 or 10 days (not to mention the dreaded 30 - who has time to remember to check up on a 30-day auction?) and if both the seller and buyer come to an agreement, keeping to Ebay rules, no harm/no foul.

I play to Ebay's rules for the most part, but I have little to no sympathy for Paypal when they cannot play by their own rules. Twice as a seller in the last six months I have been stiffed by them, against their own rules - they even refunded a buyer nearly $300 prior to my receiving the item back from the unhappy buyer - that is 100% against their stated policy. So, if Paypal doesn't have to follow their own rules, why should I? Paypal = service? Not in my book anymore.

I am surprised those things are still that expensive. There clearly are people taking parts and engraving them.

I always research my auctions and put a BIN that is at least a little more than what I expect to get for the item. One time I had some car parts that were fairly valuable, so I put a high BIN on them and listed them for what I paid. They sold almost immediately for the BIN. The next day someone sent me a really snide message and told me my opening bid was too high and that he could buy them for less from any Kawasaki dealer. I happily informed him that his opinion would have more credibility if they hadn't already sold. The parts are available from Kawasaki dealers, but it is a royal pain to get them, and the price seems to depend on the phase of the moon.

Very true, but the difference between the real deal and recent work is pretty obvious. Strangely enough, in this day and age, you would think the engraving would be better; most newer Colnago engraved clovers look like lifeless blobs, for example.

This one is definately genuine. It will make a great basis for a full-panto GT - someday!

This is the part I don't get - I can see the 'level playing field' argument, but why anyone would ever stick up for ebay or paypal - paypal especially is the dirtiest, scummiest company around - and I've dealt with merchant services for 30 years, so I know dirty scummy companies. This is the reason I can't sell on eBay anymore - they now require paypal, and paypal requires I give them access to my checking account - yea right.

No great loss - I just put everything extra on bikes and give them away. I'm not a dealer.

I use them both as a buyer, figuring since I can pay with my credit card and they since have no access to a checking account, I have my credit card company to protect me from Paypal. I've gone 30 years without protesting a charge - except when I bought something at Nashbar - but it's nice to know they at least will cover my ass if I ever need it.

I have to agree with Sciencemonster-I lose absolutely no sleep over slightly screwing Ebay and or Paypal. Unfortunately, there isn't any way to screw Paypal, since EVERYTHING is paid for by Paypal.I THINK Ebay owns controls Paypal, right??

Ebays rules are written to max their revenue.Assisting their customers is strictly a function of maxing revenue.They don't want to piss people off so much that they quit Ebay.

I don't begrudge Ebays emphasis on revenue-they are a Corp,and that is what corps do. However, I am ME, and I do what I do-which is favor me over Ebay. I pretty much assume everyone selling on ebay is more or less honest(and I've found they are, with some notable exceptions) ,and I don't make bids with money I can't afford to lose($120 or so is about it for me).

WHO DAT
Charlie

Whereever people are selling, you can get a feel for their honesty factor - sometimes just by how the ads are worded or by what the pictures omit!

That said, with the initial screening I do, I've never been ripped off. I've made some terrible deals, paid more for a lot of stuff than I should have or needed to, but that's all my fault. I can hardly blame some poor schmuck out trying to clean out his closet or make a few extra bucks.

Hey, it's a hobby!

I like eBay and Paypal. When I look around at all the stuff I've bought on eBay -- ebay.com, ebay.it, ebay.fr, ebay.co.uk -- I'm amazed. There is no way I'd have all this stuff without them. I've been using eBay since '96. I have only minimal experience on eBay as a seller. But as a buyer, eBay and Paypal have been anything but scummy companies. They've helped me at every turn. I once lost a large sum of money on eBay to a group of shill bidders. EBay got my money back and worked with the DOJ to prosecute the scumbags. Another time, a Japanese seller misrepresented an expensive chair he sold me. Again, EBay and Paypal got my money back. In the past couple of months, I've had trouble with a seller who strung me along about a refund. When he reached the point when it was too late for me to leave negative feedback, he stopped emailing and didn't pay. Despite being past the 45 day window, Paypal has opened a case for me. I should have my money within 10 days. My point is, these are companies that serve my interests as a buyer.

Yes, it's the seller they are more tough on. The problems arise when the _buyer_ is unscrupulous. EBay and paypal just don't listen, from what I've read of complaints. It's the same way with any merchant services. I once had a table of four split a dinner, then sign each other's visa slips. One person protested the charge and I was stuck for it. But, at least I coudl reach someone to listen to my sob story before they said 'too bad.'

The reason they bend over backwards to support the buyer is that if you paid with a credit card, then ultimately the buyer decides what is fair and the credit card company backs them up. Paypal has no recourse. Ebay and paypal's 'guarantees' mean nothing if you are a seller.
.

I use PayPal because it's easy and relatively thoughtless, like me. I figure in the cost when I buy or sell.
Plus, they got me $200 back when a scammer sold me a bike he didn't own or have.

eBay has become more or less a place to shop with a huge selection. Figure in shipping and what you want to pay, and take it or leave it.

It's also a good substitute for on-line gambling and gaming. Sometimes you win, and get stuff, and sometimes, you lose, costing you either nothing or you get the booby prize when the piece of junk arrives.

At least the "house" doesn't get all your money, and you get something in return, every time.

I still see some bargains, in fact, I know of a couple right now. Maybe it's a matter of wanting something no one else does.

Selling, however, is getting more complicated, on eBay and CL.
First, it costs more on eBay than ever.
Second, the questions, on both.
Third, the non-payments on eBay, and false starts on CL.

Overall, though, I'm finding parts I'd not have been able to even think about getting before. The market is world-wide. Some of my bikes would not be my bikes if I didn't know I could find parts on line. Period. There weren't exactly a ton of classifieds listing the bikes I own.

I'd have exactly one two bikes, if all I had was the classifieds: 1989 Pinarello Montello and a 1965 Schwinn Heavy Duti. And someone would have beat me to them, as it's likely that interested buyers were looking on CL and eBay, instead. I might still own them, too, but eBay and CL made it possible to ship them for the investment plus about 3 bikes in profit. Hmmm...5 bikes vs. 2. I'll hang with the hassles for a while more.

I don't know about bicycles, as I've only started playing with them in the last 5 years, but for the last 20, I've collected 16mm 1950s monster movies. There were at least 2 publications that survived by publishing classified ads. I used to buy and sell a couple movies a month...plus many of the people I bought and sold with I maintained contact - even to this day - and built collector relationships with. eBay killed both publications.

I'm not complaining - although I am, really - but that's progress.

The point I am making is that there _were_ markets for trading in obscure stuff before eBay, and there will be markets after eBay jumps the shark. Stuff finds a way to redistribute itself.


Incidently, Mr Tunes, I'll have you know my reputation in the film collecting world is impeccable. I always made a point of passing on deals on stuff I didn't really want to keep I got thru my contacts to people newer and less experienced. I do the same with bicycles - I buy a lot more stuff then I need, and I pass it on, either thru CL or by building bikes for kids. I find that things that come around do, in fact, go around. I find it disturbing that I make your list of notorious collectors becasue I don't follow your rules. It's creepy.

But, then, it's all pretty meaningless anyway, since really what I take away from bikeforums is knowledge, not deals. The exchange of knowledge on the internet is something that did not exist before, at least not on this scale, and while I appreciate the ease of finding what I need on eBay, it's really the shared knowledge that would be harder to replicate if it got unplugged tomorrow.

not true, really.

As a seller, all you need to do is:

a. describe your stuff as really is and take a heck of a lot of pictures to substantiate the description
b. send it out as soon as you are paid (and do not overcharge for shipping or include 'handling' fees to make up for what ebay and paypal charges.)
c. communicate with the person who bought your stuff. Even a simple 'hey, thanks, your package will be out tomorrow' will do it
d. give positive feedback as soon as you are paid (because as a seller that's what you really strive for)

and, to quote Bob Marley, 'everything will be alright'...

been there, done that about two thousand times.

(and this is not about bikes per se. I collect (and wear) vintage watches and primitive (17th c and before) books - heck, if you thought that the bike world was tough try getting into the Gutenberg era books )

No, I disagree. A credit card gives a buyer the same anonymous cover that internet forums give you. You can say anything, and the credit card companies will back you up. For the honest sellers dealing with honest buyers, yes, you are right.

For the honest seller and the dishonest buyer, a credit card purchase and especially one hidden further behind Paypal, you can say and do anything. It is trivial to lie and say you got ripped off and your money will be refunded from that honest seller. This forum, as well as the internet in general, is rife with examples.

You may have had the good fortune to not have run into one of these dishonest buyers, but it happens. I gave an example of one in my post - although that example predated paypal.

Paypal says it protects you as a seller, but it is not true.

Look it up.

In my eleven years of using ebay/paypal. I had one single dispute (as a buyer, and because I initiated that, because what I got was not what it was not meant to be). As a seller, paypal and ebay will give you the benefit of the doubt (speaking from experience. The disputing party has to prove that the item received was not what was advertised to be - and that is a tall order. You need to find someone to attest to that) If you sell and you know what you sell and you ship it properly and don't overcharge, you are fine...