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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 04-01-13, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Velognome
little known info, FWIW - Camagnolo also produced a 3spd IGH for 1/2 a year in '72. Nice polished alloy shell 32H and close range gears too. I luv, luv, it!
I bet it would be hard to find a 32h AW shell these days!
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Old 04-01-13, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Amesja
I bet it would be hard to find a 32h AW shell these days!
I don't think there ever was such a thing. You can lace a 32H rim to a 40H hub, though, no problems.
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Old 04-01-13, 07:23 AM
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I don't have any experience lacing up non-equivalent hubs and rims. The math is hurting my head. 4 holes would be skipped in each flange. Would that be 2 inner and 2 outer spokes missing? 4 open holes 90-degrees apart and then 45-degrees out of phase to the other flange?

I'm intrigued now...
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Old 04-01-13, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Velognome
rhm..Amesja...really?
Yes, really, lacing a 32H rim to a 40H hub, is pretty simple.
Originally Posted by Amesja
I don't have any experience lacing up non-equivalent hubs and rims. The math is hurting my head. 4 holes would be skipped in each flange. Would that be 2 inner and 2 outer spokes missing? 4 open holes 90-degrees apart and then 45-degrees out of phase to the other flange?

I'm intrigued now...
It's very simple. Out of every five holes on the hub, you use only four.
So for example if you had four holes, they would have leading and trailing spokes like this:

L T L T


but if you had five, they are a little closer together

L T - L T

You end up with two different spoke sizes; one ones next to the empty hole are one or two mm longer than expected; the others are about five mm shorter than expected.

Last edited by rhm; 04-01-13 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 04-01-13, 07:45 AM
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[QUOTE=rhm;15454431]Please edit your post, it is much too early in the day to come clean about such things. QUOTE]

As you wish...till later
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Old 04-01-13, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoUpstate
I can't be that much of a purist as I have a crass commercial reason for acquiring 3-speed transmissions [in addition to my "purist" interest - LOL].
I'm not really a purist but over the years I amassed too much stuff and had to downsize. I try hard to stay focused on British and Canadian bikes but even that has left 30 or 40 bikes in the stable.

Originally Posted by Amesja
I'm loving my Suntour AW. It's a thing of beauty and matches the modern Taiwanese Sturmey-Archer X-FDD in front.
Amesja, is it a Sturmey mech inside that Suntour shell? I've never seen one of those
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Old 04-01-13, 10:28 AM
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The Hub is nearly Identical to a Sturmey-Archer as far as I can tell other than it is stamped SunTour on the outside and the build quality and overall chrome plating is just NICER.

What it looked like when I got it, with a big TDC sticker over the SunTour stamping:


Cleaned up well:




The only parts that showed the slightest bit of rust or discoloring were the cog spacers and the dust cover over the driver, one of the axle nuts and the anti-rotation & lock washers. Considering the shape it was in when I got it, I can't complain. Stuff made in Japan is just BETTER.
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Old 04-01-13, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Amesja
The Hub is nearly Identical to a Sturmey-Archer as far as I can tell other than it is stamped SunTour on the outside and the build quality and overall chrome plating is just NICER.

...snip...

The only parts that showed the slightest bit of rust or discoloring were the cog spacers and the dust cover over the driver, one of the axle nuts and the anti-rotation & lock washers. Considering the shape it was in when I got it, I can't complain. Stuff made in Japan is just BETTER.
I have one of those sitting in my parts bin. I have heard they are nicely made, but haven't looked inside to see how the parts compare.
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Old 04-01-13, 11:09 AM
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The hub seems to be smoother and roll with less internal resistance than a Nottingham hub. When I first took it apart I thought that the planetary gears were chrome-plated. They were THAT shiny. But after going through my parts cleaning regimen they discolored ever so slightly. They are not chromed but simply VERY well machined with polished-smooth surfaces.

Most hubs are gooey inside after a few decades of use and disuse and the internal parts feel just like they have been coated in Cosmoline. Just wiping that off isn't good enough for me. I feel that the goop will slowly dissolve off with new oil on them and contaminate the new oil, hurting performance. So I put all the parts through a "boil-out" process just like one would remove Cosmoline and it works very well, although some metal parts will come out slightly darker. It's worth it, I feel, to get them perfectly clean so they don't back-contaminate the new oil and undo the overhaul. Anyone can take a hub apart and simply wipe it down. But if you don't get that goop off it won't perform as well as it did when new in my view of the world.

But since the planetary gears are so polished and the other gear parts inside that they mesh with are also so well machined and polished I think that this hub has less internal drag than an English-made and even a Styria-made variant.

It's better.
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Old 04-01-13, 11:20 AM
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Hmmm. Will its parts bolt up in an original AW shell?
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Old 04-01-13, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Salubrious
Hmmm. Will its parts bolt up in an original AW shell?
I don't know from personal experience, but it is my understanding that the parts are interchangeable.
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Old 04-01-13, 11:44 AM
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I think they would. While I didn't try it things sure looked identical to me. I've mixed and matched Nottingham guts with Styria before. You have to be REALLY careful about the cone nuts on some Nottingham hubs as they don't even match from side to side or from hub to hub -but other than that I think all the major components would be fine matching with each other.
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Old 04-01-13, 03:21 PM
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A couple of things.

1. I need a couple of sprocket spacers. Yes, a couple. I thought I had a collection of them, but I can't find them. Maybe I used them or gave them away. Anyone got one or two to spare me?

2. My Rudge is handsome and a nice conversation piece, but maybe I won't want it forever. I'm thinking of finding an old lightweight sport-touring frame like a Raleigh International and making a three-speed out of it. It would have upright bars, lightweight fenders and a lightweight chainguard. Basically, it would be a Sports but with tighter geometry and most everything made of aluminum except for the frame, rear hub, and spokes. Anyway, it's just a thought rattling around in my brain. I'm not going to do it any time soon.
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Old 04-01-13, 05:27 PM
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Sturmey Archer made hubs for Suntour and the Japanese market to compete with Shimano's 3 speed hubs, the only difference between the SA and Suntour is in the hub shell.
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Old 04-01-13, 05:29 PM
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Another 3 speed... these damn things breed like rabbits here.

1976 Raleigh 20... I have an ever growing list of folks who want one and this one has a lineup forming already.

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Old 04-01-13, 08:50 PM
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Sixty Fiver, where do you get them?
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Old 04-01-13, 08:58 PM
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Hi folks! I hope this is the right place for this: I've had this oddball bike in my possession for around 25 years.
I got it at a yard sale, bought it because of the reynolds 531 sticker on the seat tube. Rode it for a bit, then put it up and rode my Super Course instead. I'd always assumed that it was just some kind of mongrel that someone had slapped together, I couldn't fathom a light frameset with that heavy steel crank, wheels, headset and gooseneck, plus the 3 speed hub.
So I recently pulled it out of the rafters and took a look and tried to find out something about it-that's when I found pictures of remarkably similar bikes in this thread. I'd love to know some details about the bike, an aproximate valuation, and advice on whether I should attempt to restore, upgrade or pass it along to an actual enthusiast who may do the bike more justice than I could. So on to the pictures-sorry for tge crappy cel phone quality. And sorry for the way the saddle is just propped on the bike-the clamp somehow went missing.






















I think the orange is a repaint.
thank you in advance for any input!
Baz
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Old 04-01-13, 09:00 PM
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3 more pics:




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Old 04-01-13, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
Sixty Fiver, where do you get them?
People call me and say hey... "do you want a Raleigh 20 ?"

I traded this one for some parts.
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Old 04-01-13, 09:30 PM
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Monolithik- very nice Raleigh! Welcome to the C&V. It sure looks ainted up to look like a Super Sport. Lots of mixed parts. GB levers, new(er) bars and calipers. But the Frame, fork, crank and headclip look to be Raleigh Pre /early post War stuff. Maybe a Lenten Sport? It's a keeper!
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Old 04-01-13, 09:45 PM
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Hi Monolithik -
I like your orange Raleigh. - I'm not sure what it is but Velognome may be right. or maybe it's a Lenton Clubman(?)
The bb Serial number gives it away as a 1951, and it's obviously a repaint but very cool.
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Old 04-02-13, 12:58 AM
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Thank you gents!
By following your leads, I was able to dig up a bit more info to steer me in the right direction. The following info is from an article on the Raleigh Lentons by Peter C. Kohler:

For the 1952 model year, the Raleigh Clubman, Rudge Aero Clubman and Humber Beeston Clubman were replaced by the new Raleigh Super Lenton,no. 27, Rudge Aero Special no. 127 and Humber Streak no. 327. These top-of-the-line racing machines were star attractions at the December 1951 London Bicycle and Motor Cycle Show. A reworked version of the Clubman, the new model came in both a 22" and a 23" frame (gents only) with 73° head and 71° seat angles with Reynolds 531 frame and fork, alloy caliper brakes with alloy hood levers, alloy Maes bend handlebars on a steel stem and steel Dunlop HP 27" rims with Raleigh quick release hubs. A Brooks B-15 "Flyer" saddle and celluloid mudguards were fitted. Finished in either Flamboyant Electric Blue or Lustre Orange, the Super Lenton initially lacked the chromed rear triangle and fork ends of the Clubman and was supplied as single gear machine with optional Sturmey Archer gears.

There is also a chart which lists some specs by model and year.

Mine has the alloy brakes, steel, not rubber pedals, 27" steel rims, 531 frame, Maes bars,fluted cranks.I don't know what brand the saddle is, I cant decipher the logo from the pics, but I'll try to find out on wednesday when I get back to my shop.

Thanks again for the help-and please chime in if I'm way off base thinking this might be a Super Lenton.

Baz
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Old 04-02-13, 05:45 AM
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Nice NOS 26TPI wingnuts on Ebay:
https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...E:B:SS:GB:1123
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Old 04-02-13, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Monolithik
Thank you gents!
By following your leads, I was able to dig up a bit more info to steer me in the right direction. The following info is from an article on the Raleigh Lentons by Peter C. Kohler:

For the 1952 model year, the Raleigh Clubman, Rudge Aero Clubman and Humber Beeston Clubman were replaced by the new Raleigh Super Lenton,no. 27, Rudge Aero Special no. 127 and Humber Streak no. 327. These top-of-the-line racing machines were star attractions at the December 1951 London Bicycle and Motor Cycle Show. A reworked version of the Clubman, the new model came in both a 22" and a 23" frame (gents only) with 73° head and 71° seat angles with Reynolds 531 frame and fork, alloy caliper brakes with alloy hood levers, alloy Maes bend handlebars on a steel stem and steel Dunlop HP 27" rims with Raleigh quick release hubs. A Brooks B-15 "Flyer" saddle and celluloid mudguards were fitted. Finished in either Flamboyant Electric Blue or Lustre Orange, the Super Lenton initially lacked the chromed rear triangle and fork ends of the Clubman and was supplied as single gear machine with optional Sturmey Archer gears.

There is also a chart which lists some specs by model and year.

Mine has the alloy brakes, steel, not rubber pedals, 27" steel rims, 531 frame, Maes bars,fluted cranks.I don't know what brand the saddle is, I cant decipher the logo from the pics, but I'll try to find out on wednesday when I get back to my shop.

Thanks again for the help-and please chime in if I'm way off base thinking this might be a Super Lenton.

Baz
Baz, I think you're right in assuming the bicycle is a Super Lenton. I'm not usually one to disagree with auchencrow, but I do not believe it to be a Clubman as they were made from double-butted 531 instead of straight gauge 531. The sticker, if original, would indicate it is straight gauge tubing.

Out of curiosity, does it have 26" or 27" wheels?

EDIT: The Clubman was not DB 531 but was straight gauge as rhm states.

Last edited by photogravity; 04-02-13 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Correction on tubing
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Old 04-02-13, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by photogravity
... I do not believe it to be a Clubman as they were made from double-butted 531 instead of straight gauge 531. The sticker, if original, would indicate it is straight gauge tubing.
No, I think you are mistaken about the tubing. The Clubman had straight gauge tubing; only the RRA had butted.

The lugs and chromed fork ends on Baz's bike are all consistent with a Clubman of that period. The Super Lenton, as far as I can tell from some bad photos on the internet, had different lugs. Baz's bike also has aluminum brakes and handlebar, as well as the chain ring with heron heads, all of which point to a Clubman.

I'm not sure how much weight to put on the lug designs used; I've seen Lenton Sports with both fancy lugs (as on Baz's) and plain. But Baz's bike has enough Clubman features to make me pretty confident that's what he has.

Baz, I have that same saddle and have not figured out the stamp on it either. Two letters, the first maybe E or F, and the second obviously S, between the words "TRADE MARK." I'm thinking it's a Japanese saddle from the 70's, on account of the frame design, but I'm not certain about this yet.

If you decide to repaint your Raleigh, you can get the correct decals from H. Lloyd Cycles.

Last edited by rhm; 04-02-13 at 06:38 AM.
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