I think that one never has the right to negotiate after the fact. You can accept and shut up or you can return the object. Those are your only two options. If the seller then prefers to offer you a discount rather than accept a return of the item, that is up to them but you have no right to bring up the topic or insist on anything.

It is furthermore always the responsibility of the buyer to be aware of what they buy. Old bike values are made up of two elements: the usable value and the collectible value. The winning price that you paid was based upon the overall knowledge of all the potential buyers out there. I can assure you that others who did their homework will have discounted their bids to take into account the need of a repaint to be able to bring the frame up to snuff as far as collectibility goes. As I said, the bike is fully usable as is and therefore has not suffered any depreciation in its usable value due to the paint. The non-original paint has already hurt the collectibility value to such a point that one had no right to claim any added value for collectibility. So if you as a beginning collector are bidding on a bike thinking that it has a certain collectibility factor, it is your responsibility and only your responsibility to know how to evaluate this correctly. Like I said, you were the one who decided to play with the big boys and assign an added value to this bike for the fact that it was a Cinelli and not some other less desirable frame, you must therefore be big enough to recognize that you are out of your league and were not sufficiently knowledgeable to play this game.

If this was the bike on German ebay a while back, I remember it quite well and had no problem at all to discount the overall value of the bike to be that of a no-name Italian frame in rideable shape with a 50th anniversary gruppo. No more no less. If it was indeed that bike, you got a price that was fair but far from a screaming deal.

You just can't get away from the dick heads. No matter how hard you try, no matter where in the world you go, you just can't get away from the dick heads. There are just too many of them.

Citoyen du Monde: This has nothing to do with "playing with the big Boys" or "beginning collector"!
If you sell a bike with Campagnolo 50th anniversary and Cinelli frame n°xxxx you show that you are aware of the collectibillity of a bike that is almost 30 years old.
When you then show over 20 pictures plus provide extra pictures per mail and you don`t show these scratches on the toptube you are ripping of people. No matter who
is the buyer. The seller has the responsability to provide all the informations available about the item that is sold. Here he hasn`t done it, that`s the point!

By reading your posts I almost think you are the one who sold me the bike....

Then however it can`t be you since by negotiating I meant I wrote a complain to the seller and hoped to get an answer. However, till now the seller hasn`t posted a reply. Not over Ebay,
not per Mail.

Reading your post, I take that you have spent fewer years on earth than I have been involved with bikes (going on 35 years). I do not state this to pull rank on you, but simply as a basis to tell you that you have much to learn about vintage bikes as well as how to deal with the buying and selling of bikes. Everybody makes mistakes at the beginning. However, for most C&Vers, because they are generally located in the US, the errors are generally on lower level bikes. Being in Europe and being confronted on a regular basis by bikes which would seem to offer the chance of major financial gain, you will easily get lulled into believing that trading in vintage bikes is without risks. Nothing can be further from the truth. In this case, you based your purchase on wishful thinking as you had what you yourself claim to be incomplete and not terribly good photos. If this is indeed the same bike that I saw on German Ebay, it took me less than a few seconds to completely discount the bike (https://cgi.ebay.de/Rennrad-Cinelli-C...-/160439069448). Furthermore, the seller writes very clearly in his description: "div. kleine Lackschäden...Nutzungsspuren vorhanden" which for the unilingual translates to: "Various small points of paint damage... Traces of use do exist". He also points out that the saddle has been recovered, which further goes to emphasize the fact that the bike has led a hard life. Lastly, the fact that the bike has a bell mounted means that it has been used for commuting duty and or almost exclusively for city riding: once again a sure sign of hard life. This is about as clear as you can get in Ebay-speak to say the frame is gnarly and the bike has been ridden hard and put away wet. One look at the main auction photo also highlights that paint is not original.

As they say, at its best, ebay is world where one needs to go by the saying "Buyer beware". The seller is required not to lie, but by the same token is not required to state point out every potential defect. It is up to the buyer to assign a value based upon the available information. Here the seller spelled it out that the bike had damaged paint and even given that warning you still went ahead with the purchase. At this point you need to stop whining, accept your own responsibility and not go back on your contracted price.

BTW, the final price that you paid is still not that bad. You can readily come out ahead after paying for a European repaint or by parting out the bike... Had the bike had original paint, even with "traces of use", you could not have touched it for less than 1500 euros. When you disclose that it has "various small points of paint damage", the price drops.

PS: Why don't you post the additional 20 photos supplied by the seller so that we can see that you are also neglecting to disclose further details provided by the seller.

Thank you for your post Citoyen du Monde.
Of course you are right with the fact that I am much newer to vintage bikes than you are. There is no doubt. And I still have a lot to learn, who doesn`t.

I was aware that this bike isn`t anymore in perfect condition and that it has been riden a lot. You can see that as you say on the first picture provided. However,
this doesn`t mean you can lie on the rest. If you do, ok, but I guess you won`t have a lot of satisfied custumers. Oh, I forgot to mention. After I payed for the item
the seller asked me not to give him a review because he doesn`t want that the bike shows up with a that high price on his profile. Strange, no?

The link you posted is the right one. Only too bad that the seller already disabled all the pictures that were included in the auction. But as you followed the auction,
you should know there were lots of pics and you also should know that there was none showing the top of the Toptube.

I could upload all the pictures he posted to me and then post them here in the forum but what would that help? nothing! I could post an tons of pictures and just don`t post the
one (there is none) which shows the scratches on the toptube. Or you believe me or you don`t. It`s your choice, but why should I lie?

As the bike is old and I see that the paint is not anymore in best condition I take "div. kleine Lackschäden) as the genaral issues. Of course you can`t list every little issue. However if there is a big one and you are an honest seller you try to show it to the potential buyer.
Plus, if he didn`t do it on purpose I don`t see why he does not even reply to my complaint.

But now forget about this. It is only my problem and the one of seller (maby).

My question and that`s why I posted the thread was to now what I should do to sell the frame for the best money ( without ripping somebody off by neglecting some issues). Repaint or not Repaint?

Back to the paint question...
In roughly the same part of Europe as you is https://www.specialpaintwork.nl/ . They're connected to Duell bikes.
I'm considering them for a tragic looking Billato Concorde.
Elev12k may be able to comment on their work.

Thank you for your post Metzinger.
That doesn`t look too expensive. I don`t speak dutch but I think they ask 120 euros.
I really would like to here from somebody who has experience with that if they do a good job.

sorry but the reality is that if the seller misled you you are well within your rights to ask for a discount because the alternative is that you return it back and get a full refund which the seller probably doesn't want. I don't care if it's a bike, a golf club, a car, or whatever. EBAY is a community and it's only going to work when both parties behave fairly. If 20 pics were truly posted with none showing that damage, I find that to be pretty intentional on the part of the seller who probably realizes the buyer may be a bit miffed but probably won't go ahead and complain. If this person sells a large quantity of items, it's worthwhile because maybe 1 out of 10 times someone will complain and he'll kick a little money back but otherwise still make a big profit on it.

Typically the feedback pertains to the smoothness of the actual transaction not the item condition so it's hard to determine what sellers are quality and what ones are shady

You read correctly.
As I said, Elev12k may have some input.
He mentioned his experience with those guys in these posts. You could PM him.

You could also send a picture of the frame to Cinelli, and ask for a letter validating that indeed, there's no way that frame left their factory with that lousy paint job. Once you have the letter, you can tell the seller you have it, and either he can refund your money and save himself lots of trouble and damning feedback, or he can go through a really annoying paperwork process as you file a claim with Paypal based on the item listed as knowingly inaccurate. Make sure to emphasize to the seller that you have a letter from Cinelli saying that this is not original paint.

Also, if you paid with a credit card, they might cover the false merchandise claim in the event Paypal does not. That's what happened with me when I bought a fake Torelli a few years ago and the buyer refused to refund me the purchase.

I really don't understand the fuss.
Some people here seem to imagine that they live in an ideal world, with all people being friendly to each other. Nice. But as far as I remember the real world outside isn't ideal.
The seller of the bike seems to be a very smart guy, kind of a vintage bike "pro". With THAT ad he did everything right to legally "enhance" the value of his bike and optimize his profit (and he almost certainly made a profit). Clever. And there's nothing you could do against it - legally. He didn't conceal the scratches, he just didn't show them on pics. He didn't write about "original" paint and was very careful with his wording in the ad. Remember that YOU would have to prove any kind "fraud", so your legal position isn't too good.
AND - he added a clause, that any kind of warranty is ruled out and that you abandon potential rights to return the item, as he's a private seller - "caveat emptor". And told you to NOT BID if you don't agree. DOH!
So learn to not just run over, but UNDERSTAND an eBay offer and you won't get ripped off by the "big boys" again.
Citoyen du Monde is right (he always is), you are wrong. Sorry.

Paint it and sell it, you won't get too much on the market in this condition. (Some of the "big boys" would give it a cheap sales paint job and sell it with poor pictures, some others would give it a good paint job and sell it with perfect pictures; choose and learn.)
Or follow my personal advice: just remove the paint and sell the frame in it's bright chrome finish - as he told you that it's fully chromed underneath, boy .

Young madcaps ...

VintageR, you are right, but not completely.
My legal position is very good! You know why?
The bike isn`t fully cromed underneth! That simple!
And by hiding essential issues of the bike. If you provide a lot of pictures and hide the worst part of the item you sell it`s fraud. At least here in europe!
Plus, he wrote about orignal paint in an email and an official message on ebay. I guess that`s enouth, no?

I contacted Cinelli and the Repaint Company in Holland.
Cinelli told me they could do a repaint. I now sent some pictures of the frame to them so they can give me an estimate of how much it woult cost.
He company from Holland didn`t answer yet.

One more thing: The seller writes in the Ad: Condition of the bike like shown on the pictures. However, he doen`t provide a picture that is most important to be able to determine the condition.
This has nothing to do with beeing able to understand an ebay offer! My ebay profile is a 100% 5star seller profile with over 100 reviews. Do you have a better one?

Horse****, the scratches are clear as day. The seller intentionally made no mention of them and provides 20 pics but couldn't get an angle that showed them? gimme a break. If he provided one pic of the bic from the side and said he was selling it used, as is/as seen, that would be one thing. But how are you going to take 20 pics and not show that damage?

Whaterver, bikes are meant to be ridden, not looked at anyways

The good news is the bike already has a poor repaint, so you don't have to feel bad about doing a nice one. If it were mine I would sell the Campagnolo 50th and use that money to cover the cost of a nice reapaint/decals, put an NR gruppo on it and have a nice Cinelli that I didn't have to feel bad about riding around. It could still be a great bike.