Cyclist Dave Sims rides the Tour de France on a RALEIGH CHOPPER | Daily Mail Online

I agree! While there is nothing wrong with modern steel but they don't use lugs and lugs just look darn cool and is a true vintage look instead of a make believe vintage look that falls way short of the effect. Also older steel like Reynolds 531 rarely failed, my 531 frame has over 160k miles and a good 1/2 of that was training and racing in mountains and the rest was in the mountains too! and the frame is still good. So I don't believe you gain anything by going with modern steel unless you want to race on a steel bike but then you might want something lighter like a Rodriguez Outlaw.

Alfine = "slumming" LOL!

I seriously considered a Rohloff hub but the more I looked, the less I liked them. To have any hope of a clean installation, the bike needs to be built for that hub - special drop outs, double cable guide braze-ons, etc. Even then, the bikes I saw looked clunky. Then, there is the cost - currently $1330 to $2250 on Amazon (just for the hub)! Still, they are a thing of mechanical beauty.

Nope, buy a clean 1980's steel framed bike that needs little to no work. Equip it as you see fit and enjoy it.

I think VeloOrange frames are like kit cars based on air-cooled Volkswagon Beetles, that is they are an absurdly expensive way to end up with something very middling and neither desirable nor actually approximating performance, form, or function.

ANY orange colored vintage Centurion over a VeloOrange frame in my book. Those Centurion bikes have impeccable quality to them. My wife has a lower end Super Lemans mixte, and I'm constantly shocked with the quality of the frame, and the paint and craftsmanship. Is it Reynolds 753, no, but it might be the "nicest" bike in our possession. You can constantly get Centurions cheap on Craigslist because as cyclists we are mostly ignorant and think newer plasticky crap is better or that newer modern frames are better. Neither is true. There is nothing on her Super Lemans that requires upgrading, though I'll replace all of it with better kit, eventually.

I'm of the opinion that the peak fit & finish of the Japanese 80s era is where its at. Grant is right about that, at least.

If you're going to spend $600 on something Taiwanese why not source something actually good, not something thats a cheap imitation of something that was good?

For crying out loud you could get a Bikesdirect.com Mercier 20 ltd for about $1000 not too long ago, and that's coming with low spoke count Shimano wheels and full Ultegra components. It came with Columbus Zonal aluminum main tubing and had a carbon fiber rear triangle and carbon front fork. Now that's not the bike the VeloOrange crowd is looking for, but my point is this: You can't begin to compare the "quality" of that Bikesdirect.com Mercier frame/fork made of Columbus tubing in a factory that makes big name high zoot nameplates with a cheap steel frame. I know hardcore roadies that absolutely loved their Mercier/Bikesdirect.com bikes and only got rid of them because of the stigma of Bikesdirect.com bikes. In reality, it isn't the sticker anymore but the quality of the tubing and the precision of the factory it was being made in.

People who believe a lowend steel frame is worth $650 get what they deserve.

I'm constantly amuzed (in honor of Andrew Muzi of Yellow Jersey and his disdain for some of the ignorance and preferences of the cycling consuming public) that so many people assume that anything steel is good, but that actual GREAT bikes that Bikesdirect.com sells are held in such low regard. I'm not kidding when I suggest that a team could compete for Gran tour stage wins and a GC victory on Bikesdirect.com bikes.

The notion that a Specialized, Dorel Cannondale, Pinarello, or other such sticker makes a bike "better" than the no-name sticker or Bikesdirect branded Windsor, Motobecane, Mercier, Gravity, Dawes, Kestrel bikes is ludicrous. The quality process and engineering that exist in Taiwanese factories today is enough to make Gary Klein think he didn't know anything about materials science or fabrication. When you get into the good stuff, with the high-end carbon and titanium bikes the sticker and the nameplate almost become irrelevant. To that point ANY higher build kit Bikesdirect.com bike is going to be better than ANYTHING that Indurain rode in his steel and aluminum Pinarello days.

Why do we have this weird market niche where crappy steel bikes like Surly, Soma, VeloOrange, etc. are considered good value and lots of people want them, and the generic bikes of BikesDirect.com aren't considered good kit, and nobody wants one. The reality is the latter are "better" bikes than most GC winners of the Gran Tours ever rode on.

This whole steel is real thing has almost reached the point of being patently absurd. Anyone who thinks that low production value Taiwanese frames that VeloOrange imports are better than the low-yen strong-dollar days of peak fit/finish Japanese bikes is fooling themselves.

+1 Any quality vintage Japanese bike is better.

Anyone thinking of spending nearly $700 on a VeloOrange frame needs to rethink their purchase in my mind. For crying out loud you can get a Taiwanese made Rivendell Sam Hillborne for only $600 more. You can't begin to compare what a VeloOrange is to what a Sam Hillborne is. The "value" of a Hillborne is, even in my mind, orders of magnitude more than any VeloOrange frame set. I'm no Grant/Rivendell fan. I wouldn't trade a single Sam Hillborne frame set for ten VeloOrange frames.

We live in a strange world. You can buy a Porsche Boxster with low miles for less than $10k in most markets, and yet everyday people line up to buy Kia Rios or Hyundai Accents for around $15k. Go freakin' figure. That's about the variance in terms of engineering and cache as I think exists between a $650 VeloOrange frame and something actually good kit. Buy vintage Japanese steel. Buy something good. Don't buy an air-cooled VW kit car. It may "look" to you like something good, but it just isn't.

Every time I look at something on VeloOrange's website, I always ask myself, "for that price why not just buy something good?"

To locate what I mean by that in context Right now on eBay the fair market value of frames by the "price-setter" reseller:

DeRosa aluminum frame/carbon fork $200
Holdsworth Special Reynolds 531 frame/fork $225
Eddy Merckx Easton 7000 aluminum frame/carbon fork $250
Yeti 575 full suspension frame $300
Quintana Roo titanium triathalon frame w/carbon fork $500
Clark Kent titanium road frame w/Alpha Q carbon fork $500
Look 586 carbon frame/fork $550
Calfee Tetra Tri carbon frame/fork $550
Specialized Tarmac Pro carbon frame/fork $550
Serotta Fierte titanium w/Kestrel carbon fork $600
Serotta Classic titanium w/Serotta carbon fork $650

Looking over that list, I can't fathom how anyone could think a cheapo low build quality Taiwanese VeloOrange frame is worth $650. Then again people think 10 is better than 9, 11 is better than 10, and that discs brakes are better than rim brakes which are really just BIGGER disc brakes in essence, that Campagnolo Nuovo Record was better than Suntour slant parallelogram derailleurs, and that being perched on top of the hoods of their too small compact geometry road bikes of which they couldn't ride five miles in their OWN drops on wheel sets with high rolling resistance very narrow high pressure clinchers makes them roadies and not poseurs.

The fact the hoi polloi can vote in the western world being a cause célèbre just reveals how deluded most of us are. Apparently selling low build quality frames would fall under the you can fool some of the people all the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. The irony being that our society has been fooled by who actually spoke those or similar words that one time it was first actually uttered:

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/12/11/cannot-fool/

VeloOrange doesn't need to sell frames to ALL of the people, just some of them, to have a very nice little business model importing cheap crap and selling it dearly.

Well said, indeed. A VO frame is of almost exactly the same quality as a Kogswell. Which is to say, pretty doggone low. I had a Kog and it was a very low quality frame hastily assembled with a mediocre paint job, and it was heavy. Per your post, it staggers the mind to think that any sane person would rather have one of them then a vintage Holdsworth 531 frame for 1/3 the cost. I had a Holdsworth into the late 90s, when I raced bikes seriously. It was light, snappy, reliable, had entirely predictable handling, and had no bad habits whatsoever. I remember the build quality as being essentially perfect. At worst, to convert it into a tourer you might want to have a couple of fittings brazed on. But that's about it.

I'm guessing that you have not actually seen a VO frame up close. They are nicely welded with nice paint. They are also not heavy, especially for touring oriented frames. They have plenty of braze-ons and eyelets. They are cost competitive with Soma and Surly frames. These are not generic road bikes. I can see the appeal of bulding a touring or bike-camping bike from the frame up with the componentry I choose.

Why all the hate? I have not seen one in person but I'm assuming there are a notch up from a Surly. I have a set of their Grand Cru Long Reach calipers and they are outstanding.

What exactly is bad about the VO frames? In all that rambling, I don't see anything specific. It's all just the same thing repeated 18 different ways- the frames are cheap and not worth the money.
But WHAT about then is cheap? Are the welds not strong? Is the paint so bad it flakes before the frame is built up? Is the frame not straight? Is the tubing actually lead?
Details man, details!

There isn't anything really wrong with a VO frame, it's just a cheaper quality (but not the cheapest quality) steel assembled by robots in China which in my opinion makes the frame overpriced. You can get a titanium frame for only $400 more! see: Save Up to 60% Off Road Titanium framesets - Motobecane Le Champion Team Ti Or you can get this which is much prettier bike, handmade in Italy and better steel for only $200 more: https://www.adrenalinebikes.com/stor...oductid=139228

Wow that is a really sharp looking bike. Probably a little tight for touring, but it certainly looks the part!!!

Those are skinny-tire road racing frames and not in any way the same as the VO models. They don't even have eyelets for chrissakes. All of the VO frames are designed for cantilever brakes. There could not be a more apples to oranges comparison.

Exactly. The only way you're fitting that wide a tire with fenders is with Surly, VO, Riv, custom, or a vintage MTB (which weigh a ton, usually). If you want something with road-ish geometry and room for tires/fenders without costly work arounds (finding
the right vintage frame + 650b conversion), your options are not expansive.

Ok, even a Surly Long Haul Trucker frame would be better than a VO Orange, and the Long Haul Trucker I saw had a lugged fork crown, and these bikes are world renown among the touring crowd; you can go back to the Adrenalin site and look the Surly frames up on their frame page, and those bikes are the same if not a tad less than the VO Orange which Adrenalin also sells. The great thing about Adrenaline bikes is that they will swap components within a component package for anything you want on your bike before it's built. If you go the Adrenalin route or have questions speak to Matthew he's a great guy with many years experience of both riding, racing, and putting the right package together for a rider's need and being practical at the same time.

Admit it. You just don't like VO although you have never ridden a VO bike or even seen one up close. The level of uniformed opinion in this thread has been epic.

Agreed.

I've ridden a Pass Hunter, a Camargue and a Campeur.

I've enjoyed all of these quite a bit.

FWIW I recommended these to friends that were weaning themselves off of race oriented framesets.

All of these built up beautifully, look great in person and make strong all road bikes with the option to go with fairly wide tires/fenders.

These VOs feature the ability to add racks, extra water bottles and other doo dads.

While I love my dedicated road bikes, I find myself more often than not grabbing bikes like my Fargo or my Merckx cross bike.

Why? They are incredibly versatile, much like these VOs.

FWIW I much prefer the ride on a Pass Hunter to my Rivendell Rambouillet in Bavaria.

It has a bit more road feel coming through the frame, while the Riv feels a little more dead and truck like.

I also dislike the fact the Riv doesn't handle as well with a fully loaded front bag, while the Pass Hunter handles it like a champ.

Finally, I've ridden a Ti Motobecane and it doesn't fill the same niche as any of these VO framesets. The ride wasn't to my tastes and there was a fair amount of flex in the stays/bottom bracket area.

Buying a cheap ti frameset just because it's cheap isn't a sound strategy. imho

Please refrain from being a drama queen. I never said I didn't like VO, what I said was that I think, in other words an opinion, that they were overpriced, that's all I said.

hand built in Taiwan.

That's better, probably the same factory that Surly frames come out of. I still think the Surly frame is better quality, not by a lot perhaps, but good enough to be the leading touring bike used by people who tour. I'm not sure why VO Orange Camargue is not or at least closely tied to the Surly LHT.

The Camargue would be more closely tied with something like the Ogre than the LHT, being geared more toward off-road touring.

In total, I do not disagree with you. But, reality steps in between what we BF people may think, and what the general public perceives, as well as what they are willing to spend. Old is — well — old. And to most people, old is not as good as new.

For me, a 50 year old toaster with flip-flop sides is a better toaster as long as you monitor the time and heat, and as long as the coils are still good. Too many ifs there for most consumers. But, then I am just weird. I have socks that are older than my students!

And, I will even go further and say that I do not think things have changed so drastically from the golden years of the great, so-called "bike boom". Please let us look at your analogy as cited above.

Yes, the Porsche Boxster — low milage and so on — for less than $10K (btw, I suspect not in Japan) — great deal! Engineering, precision, panache ... all the things a modestly, technically-minded car buff who has watched every "Top Gear" episode might cherish. But, you have to give the general public some credit. The Boxster is exotic compared to the puddle jumpers they are used to. And, they will be suspecting some pitfalls. They may be thinking that it is inappropriate for what they need, even if it is cheaper than the new Kia. Could it be a bag of snakes that they cannot use or even understand? And, to their credit they may be right and not too stupid. You can probably have the entire Kia valve-train overhauled for the same price of the Boxster's head gaskets alone.

It is a matter of education and knowing. Back in the days when people bought Hi-Ten clunkers with Normandy hubs made out of cheese and thought that they were racing machines were even more deluded (IMHO). You may believe that the unwashed herd is sucked into buying the wrong frame. But consider the cost relative to inflation and blah blah blah .... I don't think things are as bad as you are saying.

Just my opinion, and not to offend. I know what you are saying. I own seven frames, and only one of them was brazed by machine. The rest were hand-made. I chose each one very carefully. I did a lot of research before each purchase. They did not cost me huge amounts of dosh. But then I grew up just after WWII ... not a lot money around ... and I escaped being made part of the 'shopping culture'. Even the frame with a full complement of machine brazed lugs has some spectacular investment castings and rides beautifully.

That being said, let us be a tiny bit generous: only a tiny fraction of the public would ever get interested enough to know and appreciate what you and I have in the garage. But that is neither their fault, nor is it to their discredit. What is more, I think they get what they pay for — although — as you point out, better things may be theirs to have and to cherish.

If and when these prospective purchasers of lesser kit should ever get so super-charged as to care about cycles the way most of us vintage steel people are, then they may follow the course and become a member of a strange, anachronous cult. If not, they will most likely enjoy what they get for $650.

Wages and salaries for most OECD citizens has stagnated in relation to inflation. Even so, (again IMHO) six or so bills is not a giant leap for what it delivers. Still, your relevant comparisons to better quality may be correct — not arguing that point. I see the Japanese equivalents on the streets of Sendai — different names and stuff; Taiwanese robotically built frames. They are a world away from the ubiquitous mama-chari. In short, the general public here are buying better and better bicycles in a wide variety of styles. The young have been shying away from buying cars and are leaning towards two wheels. OK by me!

Exactly.

This looks like just opinion based on guessing.

As for an LHT being the most used bike to tour with, I have no idea, but I'd guess even if it's the most used bike, it's also only something like 4% of all bikes that are used for touring.
It's a popular frame to use because it's relatively cheap, has an alt vibe to it, is readily available in many cities, and has overall good geometry and and amenities.
The VO Campeur is not as readily available in person. It's going to be less well known as a result.

That lengthy diatribe above fails to mention one thing... what does a VO ride like? Well, not being particularly cash rich these days, I'm dismantling a mint condition Colnago Nuovo Mexico to build my second Pass Hunter, simply because the Pass Hunter is more FUN, both to ride and to modify from time to time! Maybe he/she should actually spend less time second-guessing other people's motivations - and freedom to spend theoir money as they choose - and get out and ride more. (And since he seems to think our buying habits must be polarised, and he mentions one of my cars, I also own a Porsche Boxster S.)

You can't take anything mtnbike says seriously. He just posts self-important walls of text and, thinks that makes him authoritative. No way he's ever been on a VO, he's probably never even seen one in person.

I've seen some VO frames in person and they have nice welds and paint jobs. They are a reasonable value compared to other options for relatively inexpensive steel frames. My only beef is their geometries. All of their frames have extremely short head tubes, which I don't understand for bikes intended for touring, randonneuring and commuting. I couldn't ride any of their frames without a large stack of spacers above the head tube. However, if you like your bikes set up with a large saddle to handlebar drop -- or don't mind a stack of spacers -- they are nice.