I know this is imposs to do without a picture, and I'll post one when I can, but on the chance there are some experts lurking: I bought an "Italian" bike for a co-worker (they TRUST me!) with NO decals, metallic blue paint and yellow highlights in the round holes in the lugs. Looked familiar but I coudn't place where I'd seen lug treatment like that before,I noticed the "Cinelli" fastback seat cluster and the old gears (in my head) began turning. I rode the thing, and that convinced me to buy it: it was sweet, also pretty cheap, with a mis-match of assorted parts: Campy/Galli/dura-Ace, but nothing great or in pristine shape. The workmanship wasn't great either, one of the holes in the top lug was way offcenter, but it seemed like a decent no-name italian ride for my co-worker. Curious as I am, i had to figure out what the heck it is: NO chrome at all, 26.8mm seat post, Campy dropouts and fork tips, feels like SL, only braze-ons are the 3 (!) top tube cable guides...oh and the fork crown is FLAT, not "Cinelli A" and has long reinforcing tangs. My instinct said Windsor Pro, but I've never seen one with no chrome and these short-medium point lugs...It's NOT the cheap Windsor Carrera, my Brother in law had one of them and I remember it well. Were there other Mexinellis besides Windsor? Any Italian Cinelli fakes? It's a decent bike and he's not going to care or appreciate the fine points of it's heritage, anyway...but it kills me not to be able to NAME it! I will have pix, real soon...thanks for your indulgence.

Check on Classic Rendezvous ( https://www.classicrendezvous.com/main.htm ) they
have photos of windsors.
As far as I recall they (windsor) were the only ones who did the fake cinelli's.
Cinelli wasn't all that meticulous a framebuilder (got my nomex on), I've heard
sloppy be used in conjunction with a number of classic italian bikes.
Serial number? that may help.
The CR list (instructions on posting at Classic Rendezvous) might be a good place
to ask about the bike. If they don't know, no one will.

Marty

Thanks for that tip, i'll pursue that one. meanwhile, I've uploaded some pics to a Yahoo briefcas site, check these out and see if they tell you anything:
https://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/....src=bc&.view=
Thanks again,
-Alan

maybe Chiorda or Frejus or Windsor

From Sheldon Brown's pricing guide:

Windsor
These were really fun bikes from Mexico. They made generous use of Campy parts, and the top-end frames were Cinelli knock-offs. When you see a Cinelli frame with holes-in-the-lugs, using a 27.2 seatpost, say "Windsor painted-like-Cinelli". There are more that just a few Windsors floating around out there with Cinelli decals. A Windsor is nice, but it isn't a Cinelli. Windsor frames tended to use fairly heavy tubing that made for a stiff but dead ride. Figure that an N.R. equipped Windsor in guideline condition should have a value of around $ 700. The Winsdor track bikes are very nice - in guideline condition they should be worth around $550

It would seem the tip-off is a 27.2 post. I'd guess your bike not a Windsor. If not a Cinelli, then what?

I don't know.

Marty, I hear the same thing quite a bit. In fact in the same site I just used Sheldon B. takes a shot at Colnago workmanship while acknowledging the quality of their ride.

My understanding of this (workmanship) is that the Italian masters (Umberto Dei, Ugo De Rosa, Sante Pogliaghi, Faliero Masi and Ernesto Colnago) were less concerned with finely
filed lugs, perfect brazing than they were of making a good, functional racing frame.
Its really been the US builders (Eisentraut, Sachs, Baylis, Weigle, Serotta et al.) that were
concerned with the Artisian aspect of framebuilding. Compare an early Baylis lug (see below) to
some of the older nagos or de Rosas, interesting contrast.
the 26.8 is a tipoff that its not a windsor.

Marty

I'm thinking that it IS a Windsor: the fork crown is right and the fact that it has the 26.8mm seatpost, lack of chrome and added top-tube cable guides could be explained away as a a unique variation and/or a respray with some brazing done. Why the owner wouldn't have sprung for more braze-ons is another question. But Windsor seems to have had more in their range in their offerings than just the Pro with its chrome lugs and other Cinelli details, and the clunkier looking Carrera with its crude (and chromed!) lugwork. It's a weird one, but I'm becoming convinced it's a Windsor...and since i don't know the specific model (Windsor owners don't seem to have a fanatic registry like Cinelli owners have, imagine that!) I'm dubbing this "Mexinelli", I like the ring of that. Thanks to all who responded!

It doesn't look like Windsor lugwork to me, and I used to sell them, but who knows. It definitely doesn't look like a Cinelli. I have in my possession a photograph of Gimondi riding a Chiorda with the Cinelli fastback seatstay design which is why I mentioned Chiorda. Of course, he could be riding a Cinell painted with Chiorda decals. The fotos at the CR site certainly don't cover all the permutations of designs put out by all the various manufacturers. Is the BB eng or Italian? I believe Windsors were english threaded.

In the 70's there was a bike mag called Bike World that did a review of Windsors and said something to the effect that they were as nice a a Cinelli for much less money. Mario Confente wrote a letter to the editor which was published in the next issue that said,"If you think a Windsor is as nice as a Cinelli, you don't know your seattube from a hole in the ground." Very funny.

Don,
Thanks for that memory, I had forgotten Mario's letter.
that seatpost size sings of italian. I don't think its a windsor in
any way shape or form.
maybe a one off by some aspiring framebuilder?
what is the serial number? does it even have one?

Marty

Well, the plot thickens! Now I'm not sure what to think anymore, I was all set to start calling it "mexinelli" and be done with it. But you and Don raise some points: it DOES have an Italian BB (though the PO has a Sugino in there, original? dunno) and it DOES have a serial number: 373 and it's stamped on the side of the right seat lug, small and on a vertical baseline (is that where you'd expect it on a Windsor??). I don't think a one-off would have a serial number, and this looks "production" to me, not displaying the loving care an amateur would take to build his "dream bike Cinelli-clone". The jury's still out...

Hi, I was just looking through the older threads & came across this one... The plot's thicker than you know... Not only Windsor made Cinelli knock offs in Mexico, others did too! I have two Windsor Pros, and a "Fraysee", and also a "Raysport". All were very Cinelli-like, with the latter two even having the sloping fork crown...! BUT the Fraysee & Raysport have Campagnolo VERTICAL drop-outs in the rear! Here's a pic of the Raysport:

Never seen THAT one before, and it's 531 too! Where was this (and the Fraysee) made? This looks to be better workmanship than my Mexinelli...which BTW I'm settled on as a Mexican product and am planning to build up as a SS with a pair of wheels built on a vintage NOS track hubset. I think it will be a very nice ride for somebody a little taller than me, it's just a bit too big at 60cm for me to keep.

All were HECHO EN MEXICO ! I'm sure the Fraysee & Raysport were both "house brands" built for US shops, and they're made of 531. Windsor used Columbus SL/SP tubes. BTW, if your frame has the serial# stamped in the side of the seat lug, it's a most likely a Windsor. Windsors used the 26.8 seatpost on early models, and 27.2 on later ones.

The raysports rode VERY nicely. I still love mine but it is on the donor waiting list. I cracked through the bottom bracket lug all the way around the seat tube. so it's waiting for me to donate the money to have the lugs and tubes replaced.
mine looks very much like the picture but it was alllllll chromed. not just the lugs. I've heard that the chroming process may make the parts brittle. But it rode like a dream till I cracked it. Part of the problem may be that I was 180 lbs and had it fixed out, with no other way of braking other than to back pedal. I'm not sure the frame was designed for that stress. Also I once (unknowingly until was too late) rode over a piece of debris in the road that popped up into my crank spider and crimped my chainstay. So I have 2 tubes and a lug to replace when funds arise. But it still looks pretty, just hanging on the wall in my basement. Oh the reason I'm posting in the first place, other than to reminisce, is to mention that if yours was/is a raysport and perhaps doesn't have the stickers, it would might have the letter R cut out of the bottom of the bottom bracket.

Or the bottom bracket was just overheated. That is not an umcommon failure. Regardless, it is an expensive repair, since it will involve a new bottom bracket shell.

I have a '77 fastback Trek TX900, and it too is a Cinelli lookalike, down to the little holes in the lugs. Rides really nice, too. I can't compare, I've never even seen an SC in the flesh, much less rode one.

Hello, no Cinelli frames were made outside Italy, however Remo Vecchi [ex. Cinelli] was involved with a Mexican company in the 1970 period. This company produced Windsor bicycles and also a very similar marque Carabela, so your bicycle might be one of these.

I never did find out exactly what that bike (from 2004) was, but it's long gone. I did sell it to my friend and he rode it for a long while until I found him another (and a better) bike.
It was probably a Windsor/Carabela Pro with some braze-ons added and re-sprayed.
7 years later I'm such a no-it-all I can tell my younger self all this with complete confidence.