...what is a good working definition of 'Classic' and 'Vintage'?...seems to me that those tend to be somewhat subjective terms...so, what do the good folks on this forum consider 'C&V'?...

I believe "classic" was first coined by Leon Dixon to describe mainly American Balloon tire and middleweight bikes from 1933 to the mid 1960's or so. "Vintage" would be everything else old that isn't classic or antique. I don't know what the cutoff date for vintage would be. Probably somewhere where "old school" picks up...

I think the requirement is an interest in things that are no longer made, or at least things that resemble things that are no longer made, plus anything else that interests us.

Vintage ends at 1990 IMO, 20 years old.

Here's how the Classic Rendezvous list defines it:

Neal

I like the Classic Rendezvous definition, though I would include late 70's / early 80's "pioneering era" mountain bikes as well.

I think modern bikes can be "classic", as alluded in the CR definition - style (i.e. randonneur, porteur, roadster, paint scheme, etc) and methods (i.e. lugged frames) can make a modern bike "Classic" in my view. So, I may deviate from some in this regard, as their definition of "Classic" may be specifically attributed to bikes from a certain era in a certain style.

Perhaps the term "retro" is a more appropriate/correct term for modern bikes made as I've described above, but I tend to use "Classic" when my internal editor is switched off.

I define "vintage" as anything older than 20-25 years old, so it is a constantly moving scale.

I like this definition...it's what the owner of the bike thinks. I personally find the C and R list too rigid, but it's not my list.

My personal definition is that vintage is 25 years and older...

Classic is something that people either lusted after 25 years ago or will list after 25 years after it came out. This leads to subjective opinions...to me my Merlin is classic because I strongly suspect they will be lusted after.

I personally think that C and V is about the best bikes of their periods. To me, a CF bike that is the best in its class and that people will likely lust after in 2050 is more classic than a 1975 gas piper that had millions in the production line. The 1975 gas piper might be vintage, but it's not classic. I am more interested in classic than vintage. A garbage bike doesn't suddenly become special to me after 25 years...it's just an old garbage bike.

I think of classic as defining a style and vintage defining a date. Of course, the ultimate definition of those varies per person.

Edit: I'd think of a custom modern lugged frame as classically styled. That certainly doesn't mean it's vintage. In my subjective opinion, if the bike uses a threadless headset it's no longer "classic". I think you have to have a quill stem to be a classic

+100

This is exactly how I feel. I have a mid 90's Tommasini that is in no way vintage but is lugged steel. I think of it as classic (some may differ because of the ergo shifters).

Mutt

This is pretty much how I feel, minus CR's exclusion of mountain and balloon.

For me, the distinction is aesthetic. If it looks like your current conception of something that should be flying through space either in reality or in a non-ironic, futuristic video game, or if it looks like modern athletic shoes or anything entered into a contest by a a naive young design student, it's not classic or vintage.

If it reminds you of a time and place when craftsmanship, beauty, and durability were jointly valued, even for things that have purely practical purposes (and even if this time or place never existed ... and even if the object itself is not particularly well crafted, though this helps), then it may be classic or vintage.

Historically, it's a moving target. For example, personally, certain nicely lugged bike frames from the late 1980s and early 1990s (Schwinn Premis?) have graphics that remind me of the coming deluge of soul-nullifying, carbon fiber, space pod bulls**t don't appeal to me. I don't think of them as C&V, I think of them as "modern" or whatever. But other people may have a completely different idea. And that's legit.

Does this count?

The Mafac levers and bell probably offset the quill adapter, yes. BUT, you don't have a threadless headset so you still technically meet my definition.

Don't focus too much on this definition. If you like C&V bikes, you know what you like. And if you find a bike that you like and doesn't fit what others would call C or V, you can still like it. No need to argue over whether it's C or V. And there's no need to argue over whether you like it, since an opinion can't be wrong.

Reading the Classic Rendezvouz definition reminds me why I'm not that fond of that list. For contrast, here's a little something I read somewhere...

"This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more."

It's all a moving target, I beginning to believe it's more attitude than anything else, this year 1990 or 1985 is the cut off for vintage, next year 1991 or 1986. Classic, well??

Last month a group of us were riding together, a perfectly restored Porsche 914 rolled by, it was so sweet a classic! Yet, in my younger years, 914's were bottom feeders in my eyes, but now thay have become a thing of beauty. Hence the moving target theory.

Where have all the boneshakers gone?
Long time paaaa-ssing.
Where have all the boneshakers gone--
long time agoooo?
Where have all the boneshakers gone--
gone to middleweights every one!

When will they ever learn?
When will they eee-ver learn?

I don't really know how to "Define" it, but I do know it when I see it...

I think there's really no absolute definition of what's classic and vintage.
My personal definition on it is: "Classic" starts with anything 20 (or maybe 25) years old and older. "Vintage" at 40 years and older, "Antique" at 60 years and older.
All JMOs, of course!!

Chombi

Your bike is "vintage" if:

You go into a bike shop to get something trivial fixed on it, and they tell you "you'd be better off buying a new bike"

OR

Some 20-year-old walks up to you and says, "dude, that old frame would make a sweeeet fixie!"

As for the meaning of "classic", ... I think that's totally subjective. To me, it has no meaning.

My LBS has said that to some people, but they would NEVER say it to me. They say, so what are you working on today, Tom?

Uhmmm.....Some here at C&V might not even let that 20 year old finish the last "F" word in his sentence and either have their hands on the kid's throat or an aluminum Zefal bent over his hopefully helmeted cranium.......for saying such a thing in front of their classic or vintage multispeed babies......

Chombi

Ahhhhh, echoes of Pirsig

There is a formal definition of "classic" which is essentially, timeless styling (i.e. form) whose merit is not subject to the passage of time.

An example:

Another example:



I like that definition!