Did a search, but didn't come up with anything. I might just not be searching the right terms. Surely someone has asked this before.

Anyway, what's the difference other than the lack of the nice look of lugs. Ride quality differences, weight, etc?

Looking at Diamond Back Expert (I think. I'll find out for sure if they answer my email) as an upgrade to my current daily beater and it's tig welded. Current bike is Tange Champion #2 lugged.

Tig is fine, some of us just prefer the look of lugs. A DBE is a nice bike.

I'd assume that all other things equal a tig'd frame would be lighter because the welds weigh less than the Lugs and Solder.


I don't know if there are strength differences though.

I'd also say that two identical bikes that are lugged vs. tigged, the tig frame would be a bit lighter, but once you hang parts on it, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Functionally, there's no difference though that I can tell. The steel used is a much better indicator of ride quality than the joining method. Further, I'd argue that riding style and rider weight would also make a huge difference. Something that is really stiff and snappy to a 120 lb spinner would be weak and willowy at 220lbs and mashing...

There is a lot to making a good frame and how the tubes are joined isn't one of the major considerations from a structural standpoint. TIG welding offers a greater degree of design flexibility but for a road bike design flexibility isn't really needed in most cases BUT IT is cheaper on a per-unit basis as a method of construction. I think you can come pretty close on the weight as you can use thinner tubes in most cases in a lugged frame.

back in the early years, the steel alloy tubing available for lightweights (Reynolds 531, Columbus, Vitus, Falck, etc.) was not appropriate for high heat joining (such as any form of welding involves, Tig or otherwise) because it caused the over-heated areas to become brittle and prone to break. Lower heat methods such as brazing with bronze or silver alloys was demanded...many frames were joined without lugs but still using brazing techniques: fillet-brazed AKA "bronze welded" in the UK. Then modern metallurgy stepped up and provided steel formulations that could withstand (and even benefit from) the higher heat of welding...that's where we're at today, and these tubesets can be just as light as the old stand-bys, even lighter in some cases, and you can even use lugs and braze them if you wish.

There's an interesting thread about this subject on the Serotta forums with contributions by some of the biggest names in framebuilding:

Lugs vs TIG Welded

That was a very good read, a lot of interesting info and argument from some frame-building heavyweights: I learned a lot. I revise (sort of) my notion that the newer air-hardened steel alloy tubesets are as light or lighter than the average chrome-moly sets of yore, but that was just based on a cursory scan of the published specs on stuff like Reynolds 853 and the later Deda and Columbus steel...looks like a lot depends on whether the Tig-builder uses a heavy-gauge headtube, etc. and what's being compared to what.
Seems like the big guys all have respect for each others craft, no matter how they join the tubes.
Thanks for the scoop, Scooper.

History has affected our prejudices. Welding was a cheap way of making a frame but it was also inferior. Brazing with lugs was labor intensive but created a superior product, mostly because of reliability and durability. It also allowed them to make lighter bikes that were still reliable and durable.

But materials and techniques have advanced, and now it's possible to weld quickly and cheaply and produce a joint that is at least as strong and reliable as a brazed lugged joint.

So now the only advantages of lugging on a new frame are aesthetics and the care required to go into it. It means that the builder used an old craft, which we are sentimental about, me included.

And now that aluminum welding techniques have advanced, the cheapest way to make a good frame is to use aluminum and weld it. Aluminum used to be either too weak or too expensive. So you can get a darned good aluminum frame that is pretty darned inexpensive. It has a few disadvantages, like everything else, but it gives you a good value at purchase time.

Tig welded frame joints have no soul. Lugged joints provide a medium for artistic expression, giving the frame the potential for personality.

Do you really think this is correct?

I don't think I feel as strongly as RapidRobert worded it, but , I also prefer the look of lugs. Really nice looking lugs(which could be considered artistic expression) do give a bike more beauty and character to me.

Wouldn't have typed it if I didn't believe it. First sentence is just my opinion, but I probably should've said "more" instead of "the" after "frame". You think robot welded frames have the same "soul" as a hand brazed frame?

I won't wade into this one, but I do have an admiration for a beautiful weld bead (yes, beauty) as well as fine lug work...and I own far more lugged frames than welded.
But to respond to noglider: anyone with a bit of curiosity about aluminum welded frames should hunt down the recorded conversation/interview between Georgena Terry and Richard Schwinn (correct name?) where they talk about steel as their first choice of material for bicycle frames...these are both high-volume bike industry types, not boutique operators or "KOF" framebuilders. It's eye-opening.

Hand finishing an aluminum weld looks as good as a Fillet brazed joint,
that is also hand finished.

A batch produced lugged frame is quick to build,
if the investment in the tooling to do the job has been made.

watched Gazelle braze together a lugged 531 race frame main triangle
in a matter of minutes,
with a torch array fixture, and a rough alignment jig that insured
all the tubes were in plane , while it was hot.

It was a visit to the old Brick factory building in Dieren NL., years ago.



I understand the legions of TIG welders employed in bike factorys on Taiwan
are very proud of their welding workmanship .

welders are proud of their bead quality.

Georgena Terry interviews Richard Schwinn

MP3 Podcast of Interview

I was waiting for the "no soul" argument.

No real difference in a frame of similar quality. I've got both from the same maker - 1950's Claud Butler and the Fillet brazed (bronze welded) frame is every bit as good as it's lugged sister. Claud Butler introduced fillet brazing after WW2, when they had a stock of tubing but could not get any (European) lugs, since the factories producing them had either been bombed or changed to munitions production, with many of the workers sadly lost in the conflict. Then they adopted bi=laminated lugwork - a thin metal shaped 'cover' for a fillet braze that simulated lugs, finally re-introducing lugs proper. I can't discern any difference in ride or weight between any of these, it comes down to aesthetics and personal taste.

Anytime you smooth a weld bead you weaken it.

Perhaps I was a bit facetious about the "soul" of a lugless frame. Guess I'm biased! But I certainly like a good bead. I suppose my point is that there can be such a thing as "the perfect bead" because it's a technical thing. And the resulting frames may be technically equal. A lugged frame, however, requires the maker to make purely aesthetic decisions about how to configure or finish the lugs. That's what I meant by "personality".

That's quite a generalization. Can you elaborate?

Not necessarily.

Welded steel framed aircraft (fabric covered) have been around a long time. A good weld take a hell-of-a-lot more skill than brazing.

Try some destructive testing and get back with me. Weld some test pieces grind the weld smooth on one and then bend both 90 degree at the weld point. See which one cracks or breaks first.

Mike