rootboy 

This was my main argument too, Chombi, when this subject came up on the CR list months ago. I likened the practice to a disservice to the "community", that is, this ...our...community of vintage bike enthusiasts. But I fully admitted that that is a naive and somewhat romantic notion. It looks to me that this practice may already be having the effect of driving up NOS prices in particular, and the prices of vintage parts in general. Of course, pb*bikes has the right to ask whatever he wants for his stuff. Some of it is very rare and nearly impossible to find elsewhere. But a lot of it isn't and still the prices asked are 3 to 4 times the "perceived value" other sellers seem to be asking. The obvious solution for a buyer is to patronize those other sellers. But I still think these hyper-inflated prices are having a negative impact on the vintage parts market. Negative from a buyer's perspective, of course. For sellers, I suppose it's great. I have respect for some vendors who have been in the game a long time, such as Bicycle Classics, who have tried to keep their prices reasonable. Relatively so, anyway.

miamijim

There're many other's who do exactly what pb does and even worse.

repechage

One hopes the buyer knew that was a later version and the lack of a patent date was not referring to it being an early unit. An amazing price for that.

jr59

I can put in simply.

What is a good deal and fair.

When both parties are happy with the transaction!

No matter what the cost!!!!!

Is that simple enough!
If you don't think the piece is priced fairly, ( In your opinion) Then by all means, DON'T BUY IT!

That's pretty simply.

Seeing as I own and run a pawn shop, I know of market value, in a lot of things.
I don't try to move said market, and understand that it's only worth what someone will pay.

Been a long time since anyone has called me ignorant, in something like this. Not quite sure I agree!
Oh well, as they say; Everyone is entitled to their opinion, wrong as it maybe!

F red

Not if one one of the parties has been misled. Just because a silver tongued conman can make a purchaser happy buying a one-of-a-kind dog turd doesn't make it fair. And just because you have a grumpy customer that complains about everything doesn't make something unfair.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying someone has been misled by anyone.

In regards to the ignorant part, yes disagreeing for a completely unrelated reason, presumably because you can't be bothered to read, is ignorant. You responded to a post that specifically addressed two highly unethical sales practices and said you disagreed. Then you say you disagree because ownership gives you the right to price as you like, which was not one of the unethical practices being discusses.

Example: You accidentally purchase a counterfeit good. In order to cut your losses, you try to make a quick sale, but do not disclose the fact that it is counterfeit. You explain the discrepancies between your item and the real thing are because it is a limited edition/prototype. The purchaser is extremely happy that he got what he perceived for be an extremely rare and valuable item. It does not matter how happy you made this person. The deal is unfair. Fair: free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice. By definition the deal is unfair because of dishonesty, and any dishonest deal can not be considered fair. Dishonesty is what was being discussed in that post you originally responded to, not the ability to price as the owner wishes.

jr59

I'm about tired of your personal opinion, calling me ignorant! Last I looked that was NOT acceptable on this forum.

As I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, wrong as it may be!

Go back to your cheap bike and make believe world, where everyone asks you if a deal is fair.

As I said prior, I dis agree with your opinions. And your example is out and out fraud, and there are laws that govern that!

But go on and try to convince yourself that some sellers are trying to create an oligopoly! REALLY!!! Good luck with that!

Oh yea, doesn't matter what you post. Because the ignore here works, even though I don't like using it. But you win!

notoptube

ok

notoptube

Joe, you mention about your insulted intelligence alot . Your multiedited posts seem a little nutty.

as for game playing, you werent invited, you were actually kicked out of my house. this comment below. I still cant reply below the proper post with quotes, Im a marketing genius!

"I don't like game playing! If you have something to "sell", put it up in the marketplace and offer it at a fair price. Don't offer it at a "really don't want to sell but if you've got more money than brains i'll let it go price."

This is insane to thinkm you can dicate anything especially while your frothing at the mouth, This rant seems to have taken up lots of your time. your little smily faces are really sute to after all the funny stuff you say .

notoptube

rootboy

Im glad you chimed in. So your making saddle bags and tire savers now. or have been . youve been a big critic of mine. Your selling pieces of wire for $20 and bags for $100. My opinion doesnt matter but im sure you justify your tiresavers and maybe i think $100 for an underseat bag is nuts. I dont but youve been a big critic but its ok for you to make $20 on bent up wire. What did they cost you to make?

no really dont care, its so easy to throw stones.

notoptube

This comment is ignorant, you have no information. This oligopoly BS is funny, Ive met some of the others and most dont get along well. I dont understand that part but your stupid conspiracy and this manipulation of info. i try and give as much legit as i can, some sellers show crappy pictures and no description. , then want my prices. If I try not putting anything I dont know which is a buttload in my listings , sometimes im wrong. If i dont put info which sometimes is the case, i have to answer a bunch of q's I dont know the answers to or dont have the part in front of me. Theres no disinfo society here. I show you good pictures(usually ) you buy it, you dont, or you become the radical right. Venomous bs that doesnt make any sense, has no background , thats misinfo.

This is great politics, attack me with a bunch of crap that has no basis, except for the high price one which i agree with. Your facts are that there are other high price sellers woo

saying you agree is ignorant

KonAaron Snake 

Uhhhhh...

I am not a critic of yours and am a free market guy, but your comment to Rootboy above is BS. I've purchased two of his hand crafted leather bags and feel that $100 for them is a bargain. Find me a source of quality leather bags for less...it doesn't exist. I'm sure you feel insulted by Rootboy, but your comment above is absolute and complete non-sense. I'd place the value of his bags at well over the value of many of your bikes in fact. His wire tire savers are a very moderately priced, clever, niche item. Hand made. Considering what a mass produced bottle cage goes for, I think he's very fair.

While I likely agree with some of your responses, do you really want to win a fight with people in the bike community? Even the unreasonable members? There is no win as a businessman arguing with your customer base...even the annoying ones who won't buy it anyway. I suggest you calm down, think about the situation and do the smart thing - ignore the silly ones and move on. There is no win here...you lose by winning in this situation.

Chombi

+1^

notoptube

This is funny. I didnt say his gear wasnt worth but your out for the gang now!. this whole thread is completey ********

This isnt about winning and losing, its ok to trash me nonstop for bunch of non absolutes, junk info with no basis. Some of the crap that was said here is verging on Libel.

I only bring up the point, which I clearly said, Rootboy could throw stones about something he knows nothing about, my business. but I cant bring up that hes selling 2 pieces of wire for $20.

I diodnt say ot was fair or not and think thats the problem, theres no answer to the fair value. People talk about how much profit, well like i just pointed out how much profit is made on $20 bent wire . I even threw him out a compliment on bf when I was reading bike 1/4 .

just trying to point its kinda crappy to be able to trash, not criticize trash me and my business with no idea what i buy how much my profits . theres no facts yet i can bring up profit. kinda funny

thats why im not in the club i dont want to be.

if i spend $10,000 on stems , I have no clue if i'll ever sell all of them , or how many are damaged when I get to them. Thats a gamble, thats risk, Im not acrazy capitalist but im not doing this out of the goodness of my hear t be accused of a freakin oligopoly, or not being able to say anything to your buddy who trashed me in public for how long, should i compile the messages, the links , the do not patronize? pure BS

You dont have to be a critci of mine, and Im not looking for soldiers, the whoel discussion has alwasy been some libelous crap about me doing a dis service to the vintage cycling community of which I am part of. So do you think im winning with this crown or ever was or didnt have right to bring up my own points. sorry im not in a the buddy club

rootboy 

They're actually $18. And that includes free shipping!

notoptube

thats not the point. why do you get to decide whats fair ? again all the cute smileyfaces.

You do so much but im providing a dis service. you can trash me on different platforms, when it alwasy comes back to the same place - dont like dont buy really not worth revisiting

i really dont care about what you make , just proving a point yep im not making this gear but its not readily available, its got mega history and a huge following amongst 90 other reason why it demands a premium .

im seriously out of this discussion, you guys even fighting with each other.

go back to your crazy theories

CenturionIM

The fact is, pb*bikes has customers who are willing to pay his ridiculous prices. Or he is okay hoarding the parts and keep paying and using ebay as his personal museum. Either way, someone has enough money to support this market. Good for them. Bad for us average joes who are into C&V.

Is pb*bikes the bad guy here? He is simply a shrewd business man. What make these prices ridiculous is the demand, either in the US or elsewhere. It's like all the people in China decided they want to pay 5$ for a cup of milk. People like pb*bikes just facilitated this process.

Pb*bikes, I think we people here are just alarmed at the trend of prices skyrocketing and you being the enabler of that trend. It seems like our hobby is becoming less and less affordable. Most of us are less concerned about calling you names than keep enjoying c&v bikes/parts without taking a dent in what we use to support our families.

rootboy 

You're of course right, Notoptube. I have been one of your harshest critics. Sorry you don't like it. I don't blame you.
An example comes to mind. I recently bought a NOS in the box Regina Oro 14-28 freewheel. Sixty bucks. I was surprised, but no one else bid on it. An anomaly? For sure. Box had a price tag on it from American Cyclery, a bricks and mortar store. $125. I'm sure the guy who sold it for less didn't like it but it had been listed before at 125 and no takers. So he listed it for 60 and I was the only bidder.
$125 might be about the going market price for that item, I think. They're pretty scarce.
Price on your site? $425.00
That's where I draw my opinion from and, of course, it is only my opinion. I don't get to decide what's "fair". It is only my opinion.
No smiley face.

jr59

Not sure I agree Aaron. If you take the whole post and look at it. He clearly states that, he doesn't think 100 for the seat bag is nuts.
BTW; I pais 100 each for the ones I got and think it was/is a great deal.
The bent piece of wire is another thing.
As he said it's easy to throw stones.

You are correct in saying that arguing with your customer base is somewhat silly!
But there again, it is his stuff, and he like everyone else is entitled to his own opinion.

humanreisberg

After reading all 4 pages, all i can say is (like always, when people do this): discussions about money are boring as hell. Another interesting fact is that people show their real faces when they argue about money. they go angry, mad, funny, silly...(like people who are drunk).

Good point, that there are no winners in this discussion, but the message went only to notoptube (what about the others?). So in the end, it wasn't fair at all.
I suggest everybody to wrap some handlebar tape, clean a used freewheel or list an item on ebay to calm down

KonAaron Snake 

I get your point Jr...though I do think it was a pot shot with a disclaimer. We agree on RBs bags!

My wife owns a business and gets some unreasonable customers - I get the frustration, and PBBikes does take a lot of heat here and I understand it's annoying. I'm sure my wife would love to challenge some of them on yelp and rant, but she sucks it up - apologizes - and moves on. You don't want to win an argument with members of the community you're selling to - even when they're ridiculous. I know I'm less likely to buy from him now on the stuff I find reasonable.

PBBikes gets to charge what he wants and the market will decide if he knows what he's doing. If he's actually selling this stuff at these prices, good for him. As IAB stated, I think the whole market is undervalued by the standards of most collector markets.


The difference being that the members who made those comments aren't business people selling to the community, so they have little to lose. They just look silly to many of us.

rootboy 

It is easy to throw stones. And I admit, I've thrown some. To me, if you've read what I've said about this issue in the past, Humanreisberg, it may seem to be about money, but it's not only about money. To me at least. I've gone out of my way to say what others have also said on this subject, and admitted freely that my attitude is a bit naive and romantic, that I believe it is having a negative impact on the vintage cycling community at large. I know this is a bit silly. There is no obligation for a business man to cater to this perceived community and it's wishes. What I find interesting is that some members here attack the messenger instead of making a counter argument as to why they disagree with the message. Barry, to his credit, has in the past laid out in a calm and rational manner his reasoning on the subject. I have, to my discredit, chalked his pricing up to greed. I could be wrong, but that is one of the only reasons I can think of to ask $425. for an item that generally sells from other vendors for less than half that. Is it his right to ask whatever he wants for the item? Of course. As it is my right to have an opinion about the price, and to state it. I didn't start this thread but I certainly contributed to it. Perhaps I'll lay off in the future. But not because some members attack me for holding the opinion I do.


FWIW, I've done an informal time and costs study while twisting up my tire savers. My "bent piece of wire". I make about ten bucks an hour when I do it.
I don't do it for the money.

jr59

I think you are missing at least my point.

As far as I am concerned, you are welcome to charge 100 million for both your bags and your wires.
They are yours. Charge what you wish. Nobody should be able to tell another what to charge. At least at this level of sales.
BTW; I'm not a player at 100 million. BUT they are great bags.

What I am saying is that as you are allowed to charge what you will, and make what you make. (no matter what the #)
So is Barry, it no different! He has gone to the trouble of finding all these parts and posting for sale. What he sells and makes is up to him,
just as what you charge is up to you. Heck I hope you both make millions! You both take risks, and use your knowledge and market what you have.
As long as somebody wants to pay what you are asking, no problems!

There may be a VERY small C&V community, but it is small. Still no one can tell another what he should charge, or how he should go about getting his price.

rootboy 

Hi JR,
Oh, I didn't miss your point. Good point, too. And, while all true, I'm talking about something else. To be clear, I am not trying to TELL anybody what to charge for their goods. Like I could, anyway! I'm commenting strictly on the fact that I think (personal opinion here) the items are priced too high when compared with the same items sold by other vendors. I have wondered why that is and so far have not heard anything that justifies it other than "he can charge whatever he likes". Yes, of course, PB can charge whatever they want and me harping on PB's prices isn't going to change anything. I suppose I wonder about the motive, and that gets me going. But I'm going to stop. Second guessing someone's motives doesn't do anything constructive, I guess.

One of the dangers of making a declaration on the net, especially one critical of something or someone, is that you will be forced to defend and explain your view, not shared by others, over and over again. That's understandable and I expect it. But as I continue to try to explain my view it makes it seem that this issue looms large in my world. It doesn't. So, I'll stop.

By the way, unrelated to the discussion, I had no idea some folks think I charge too much for my tire savers at sixteen bucks a set. (it costs me $2.07 to ship them). One can certainly buy tires savers for less from other places. While I'm not sure I can sell them for any less, it has got me thinking of ways I can maybe make them and sell them for less.

iab

You mean bad people doing bad things is bad? Thanks chief.

And claiming someone has an oligopoly on vintage bike parts and in matters it any sense in the height of ignorance (you seem to favor that word). Please explain exactly how it matters? You can even use me as an example. I can even one up the issue. I likely have a monopoly with NOS prewar FB hubs. I have bought every set i have ever seen in the last 7 years and I haven't seen a set for sale in a long time.

So if I decide to sell them, please, do tell, what's fair? I suppose a the listing would read "Hubs. $1."

And now I could be considered more than a monopolistic *****heel because I really don't want to sell my hubs. How dare I manipulate the market by not offering them at a fair price. I must be an eveeldoer.

Or. It means absolutely nothing. Having an oligopoly in vintage bike parts has the equivalent of a third-grader with a magnifying glass sitting next to an ant hill. Oooo. I shudder at the misuse of power.

If you live your life as black and white as you claim your ethics are, well, that's just sad. You seem to be filled with outrage and any small lapse in ethics is equivalent to the greatest act of immorality. Good luck with that.